What can be done - split from 'livestock suppliers list'
- Thread starter clarionreef
- Start date
cortez marine":3n64a211 said:
I think that is kind of a cop out Steve. I, and our local club, has asked you for proposals in the past, and eagerly awaited them. People were hot and ready to help out at all different levels. We never got a proposal or any other information or followup. The answer to my question continues to be 'talk to me in private and I will tell you everything', but so far, that has always been unfruitful and frustrating.
If a new organization needs to be created, I don't understand why people with so much passion for the industry and the reefs don't get the ball rolling. With a good plan in place, such an organization should be able to get all the support it needs. However, the cart can't come before the horse. We need a horse and that horse needs a plan. Without something concrete to tell people, we are all just gossiping.
PeterIMA":2pnrp4o0 said:
It seems to me that we need an organization that vets the other organizations and would make recommendations to all those concerned as to where to send money to support groups doing good word. All we have now is a bunch of people saying that their group is the best, with people on the outside saying that they are not the best.
How do we support the things that need support?
A bunch of smart, informed people frequent this board, can't we figure out a way to start this off?
Support for Reform,
Thales, I am not sure I understand where you stand. You moderate a forum that focuses on "The Industry Behind The Hobby". The idea was that the MAC would form an umbrella organization with equal representation from industry groups and conservation-oriented NGOs. That process has failed. The MAC sided with the exporters who buy and sell cyanide-caught fish. Finally, they realized that the trade is not capable and not willing to pay for certification. Especially, when there are no benefits. Like where are the MAC-Certified Net-Caught fish?
Now they (MAMTI) have the funding needed to pay themselves fat salaries, while accomplishing very little. If the MAC and their confederates disagree with this prognosis, I challenge them to provide a rebuttal.
I at least like Steve have devoted over 25 years on these issues. So, don't act like we don't know what we are talking about. The truth is the truth. The trade is ready to ditch the MAC. The only question in my mind is whether the various factions comprising the trade will finally support reform or will it be necessary for the exporting and/or importing countries to ban the trades in live MAF, corals, and live rock?
Peter Rubec, Ph.D.
Thales, I am not sure I understand where you stand. You moderate a forum that focuses on "The Industry Behind The Hobby". The idea was that the MAC would form an umbrella organization with equal representation from industry groups and conservation-oriented NGOs. That process has failed. The MAC sided with the exporters who buy and sell cyanide-caught fish. Finally, they realized that the trade is not capable and not willing to pay for certification. Especially, when there are no benefits. Like where are the MAC-Certified Net-Caught fish?
Now they (MAMTI) have the funding needed to pay themselves fat salaries, while accomplishing very little. If the MAC and their confederates disagree with this prognosis, I challenge them to provide a rebuttal.
I at least like Steve have devoted over 25 years on these issues. So, don't act like we don't know what we are talking about. The truth is the truth. The trade is ready to ditch the MAC. The only question in my mind is whether the various factions comprising the trade will finally support reform or will it be necessary for the exporting and/or importing countries to ban the trades in live MAF, corals, and live rock?
Peter Rubec, Ph.D.
Thales":3658yhbe said:cortez marine":3658yhbe said:
I think that is kind of a cop out Steve. I, and our local club, has asked you for proposals in the past, and eagerly awaited them. People were hot and ready to help out at all different levels. We never got a proposal or any other information or followup. The answer to my question continues to be 'talk to me in private and I will tell you everything', but so far, that has always been unfruitful and frustrating.
If a new organization needs to be created, I don't understand why people with so much passion for the industry and the reefs don't get the ball rolling. With a good plan in place, such an organization should be able to get all the support it needs. However, the cart can't come before the horse. We need a horse and that horse needs a plan. Without something concrete to tell people, we are all just gossiping.
Thales,
The problem is that the industry won't support initiatives coming from individuals "that they can not trust". AMDA's fund raising campaign last year is a sample of it.
Collection of marine ornamentals and its impact on the environment and fisherfolks is a very complicated issue. Social, economic and environmental aspects must be addressed at the same time. It is more complex than just net training.
Poverty and lack of education in coastal communities in the Philippines and Indonesia are two factors that do not mix with environmental concerns. Time to close down the trade in the Philippines and Indonesia? Getting closer, according to F. Cruz report.
PeterIMA":18g1rwqy said:
I am not sure I follow what information you would like about me or where I stand. Mostly I stand frustrated that nothing seems to be being done and frustrated at the lack of ways to help.
We know. What I am trying to figure out is what to do now besides continually complaining how others have messed up. What do we do now?
Given the past tone of discourse on this forum, I sadly find it doubtful that anyone from MAC is going to post here. I would love to be wrong about this, but fear I am not.
But more to the point, who really cares what MAC does - especially if they really are doing and going to be doing essentially nothing (which is something that I don't know if I agree with). If they are writeoffable, why are people wasting energy on talking about them? They aren't and shouldn't be the only game in town.
You are misunderstanding me, and I have never thought you or Steve are ignorant on the issues. What gets to me is the MAC centric view of the industry and of industry reform. There are a billion posts on how much people think they have screwed up, but almost NO posts about what we can actually do to change things.
But what are they actually supposed to support? 'Reform' is a nebulous concept. I know people who have money they would love to throw at projects that will help the industry and hobby, but I have nowhere to tell them to throw it.
I still don't know what to do. Who do you think I should support and how should I do it?
Jaime Baquero":1f1nt2r1 said:Thales":1f1nt2r1 said:cortez marine":1f1nt2r1 said:
I think that is kind of a cop out Steve. I, and our local club, has asked you for proposals in the past, and eagerly awaited them. People were hot and ready to help out at all different levels. We never got a proposal or any other information or followup. The answer to my question continues to be 'talk to me in private and I will tell you everything', but so far, that has always been unfruitful and frustrating.
If a new organization needs to be created, I don't understand why people with so much passion for the industry and the reefs don't get the ball rolling. With a good plan in place, such an organization should be able to get all the support it needs. However, the cart can't come before the horse. We need a horse and that horse needs a plan. Without something concrete to tell people, we are all just gossiping.
Thales,
The problem is that the industry won't support initiatives coming from individuals "that they can not trust". AMDA's fund raising campaign last year is a sample of it.
Collection of marine ornamentals and its impact on the environment and fisherfolks is a very complicated issue. Social, economic and environmental aspects must be addressed at the same time. It is more complex than just net training.
Poverty and lack of education in coastal communities in the Philippines and Indonesia are two factors that do not mix with environmental concerns. Time to close down the trade in the Philippines and Indonesia? Getting closer, according to F. Cruz report.
So, the answer I am seeing is there is nothing to be done. Am I missing something?
Thales,
I have been following the developments of the cyanide issue since the late 80's. NGOs have been the only ones that have worked trying to find solutions to the problems the collection of marine ornamentals has generated. The response from the industry to those initiatives has been almost nil.
More than twenty years later we see that:
- cyanide is still being used to collect ornamentals and that its use is contributing badly to coral reef deterioration in many developing countries.
-that fishing grounds have been deplected because overfishing, and that collectors have to travel further away and for extended periods of time to find new fishing grounds, this has a serious consequences on the social estructure of the communities.
-collectors despite their efforts (to keep using nets) are getting very low prices for their fish and as consequence remain poor
-quality of fish at community level is compromise because bad handling and holding practices, this has serious consequences on fish stocks. Mortality rates are high and more pressure on the reefs to collect more and more fish
-the majority of stakeholders of this industry do not react ... in short...do not care to what is happening to the coral reefs, the fish populations or the collectors.
- lack of support from the same industry to efforts by individuals or small groups.
-lack of willingness and commitment of local governments to tackle social and economic problems in coastal communities.
-fisherfolks remain poor and uneducated, this with negative consequences for the coral reef ecosystems.
Meanwhile, some are making good money with all that misery. Is the status quo an option?
I have been following the developments of the cyanide issue since the late 80's. NGOs have been the only ones that have worked trying to find solutions to the problems the collection of marine ornamentals has generated. The response from the industry to those initiatives has been almost nil.
More than twenty years later we see that:
- cyanide is still being used to collect ornamentals and that its use is contributing badly to coral reef deterioration in many developing countries.
-that fishing grounds have been deplected because overfishing, and that collectors have to travel further away and for extended periods of time to find new fishing grounds, this has a serious consequences on the social estructure of the communities.
-collectors despite their efforts (to keep using nets) are getting very low prices for their fish and as consequence remain poor
-quality of fish at community level is compromise because bad handling and holding practices, this has serious consequences on fish stocks. Mortality rates are high and more pressure on the reefs to collect more and more fish
-the majority of stakeholders of this industry do not react ... in short...do not care to what is happening to the coral reefs, the fish populations or the collectors.
- lack of support from the same industry to efforts by individuals or small groups.
-lack of willingness and commitment of local governments to tackle social and economic problems in coastal communities.
-fisherfolks remain poor and uneducated, this with negative consequences for the coral reef ecosystems.
Meanwhile, some are making good money with all that misery. Is the status quo an option?
Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you all will. LOL!!) but when have we ever seen an industry composed of private companies, willingly and without outside pressure, reform themselves for some greater good (and perhaps lesser profit)?
Expecting profit motivated companies to do so seems somewhat naive to me. Obviously "the industry" makes the most profit when it pays the collectors as little as possible, spends the least money on livestock care (arguable point, I know)and lets the true "cost" (reef degradation) be borne by people who have no power to change the exploitative model they find themselves in.
-Jim
Expecting profit motivated companies to do so seems somewhat naive to me. Obviously "the industry" makes the most profit when it pays the collectors as little as possible, spends the least money on livestock care (arguable point, I know)and lets the true "cost" (reef degradation) be borne by people who have no power to change the exploitative model they find themselves in.
-Jim
Good posting Jaime! I agree with everything you stated. It was NGOs like Haribon, OVI, and IMA that accomplished the most, not the trade or the MAC.
I think Thales missed reading about EASTI's programs (CBUGS). There is at least one NGO still working to find solutions that benefit both the collectors, the coral reefs, and the aquarium trade. Why not support them? All I suggested the trade do is make a choice and buy net-caught MAF and farmed corals and live rock. Is that so difficult?
Various companies could sponsor different villages to do things right, like sending them netting and supporting Steve with industry-sponsored net-trainings.
I believe that companies dealing in net-caught MAF can be very competitive and that is part of the CBUGS strategy. The "business" component of CBUGS could be your company or there could be other groups with similar strategies. It is up to the trade to act now in its own best interest. A continuing supply of both wild-harvested net-caught MAF and maricultured MAF and inverts is possible. The least expensive way to obtain them is from countries like PI and Indo. So, it makes good business sense to do things right.
What does not make sense is for a trade that is driving itself into the ground because of competition and least-cost economics. It is apparent that the trade is self destructive both for the NA importers and retailers and for the exporters and collectors in exporting countries. Nn one wins with the present pricing structures tied to cyanide collecting/fishing.
Peter
I think Thales missed reading about EASTI's programs (CBUGS). There is at least one NGO still working to find solutions that benefit both the collectors, the coral reefs, and the aquarium trade. Why not support them? All I suggested the trade do is make a choice and buy net-caught MAF and farmed corals and live rock. Is that so difficult?
Various companies could sponsor different villages to do things right, like sending them netting and supporting Steve with industry-sponsored net-trainings.
I believe that companies dealing in net-caught MAF can be very competitive and that is part of the CBUGS strategy. The "business" component of CBUGS could be your company or there could be other groups with similar strategies. It is up to the trade to act now in its own best interest. A continuing supply of both wild-harvested net-caught MAF and maricultured MAF and inverts is possible. The least expensive way to obtain them is from countries like PI and Indo. So, it makes good business sense to do things right.
What does not make sense is for a trade that is driving itself into the ground because of competition and least-cost economics. It is apparent that the trade is self destructive both for the NA importers and retailers and for the exporters and collectors in exporting countries. Nn one wins with the present pricing structures tied to cyanide collecting/fishing.
Peter
bookfish":2w0nfs6x said:
Jim,
Never. Nothing, except coral reef deterioration, is happening in exporting countries (Ph and INd). During the last decades many NGOs alternatives were put in place and offered (for free) to the industry ...but nothing happened. The objectives of those programs were oriented to:
- protect coral reefs
- improve the livelihood of collectors
- offer a better product to the industry, and as consequence higher profits.
The idea was to make of this trade an environmentally sustainable activity that provide an economic benefitl to collectors, but is not the case. The only winner has been the industry is WHY they do not want to change. They just want to keep exploiting the reefs and the collectors as they have done for decades. They have to learn the hard way.
I hope we'll see some change in 2007.
Happy New Year to all.
Give me a break. Your saying Les isn't doing well because the cyanide trade is cheaper :lol: WHAT A JOKE :lol:
Les is failling due to horriable management, lack of tact, laughable prices, amongst a bunch of other problems. When Ferdie told them to make Blue Tangs $20 export, he knew exactly what he was doing. Having been apart of one of the largest supporters of Les, I can say they have MANY problems, the cyanide trade is just one (and lower on the list of them).
People have asked, "what do we do". The response from you all has been "support net caught". Um, am I missing something here? Is there a CDT in place in the states, or abroad? Is there a certified clean source for hobbyists to attach to?
You say "support farmed corals and live rock"? Great, so what do all the villages do that CAN'T farm the above due to location. It's been said to me that more then 50% of areas villages are located in, are horriable for both ocean holding and farming. Sure, they could do rock, but transporting it from their locals would be a loss leader for them.
Unfortunatly, saying this trade will get clean on it's own, is like saying world peace will happen under the worlds current governing bodies.
Yah, I know, Haribon stole money, MAC doesn't hunt, it's all Steves fault, IMA squanderred their funding, blah blah blah.
Build a bridge, get over it, and move along :roll:
Les is failling due to horriable management, lack of tact, laughable prices, amongst a bunch of other problems. When Ferdie told them to make Blue Tangs $20 export, he knew exactly what he was doing. Having been apart of one of the largest supporters of Les, I can say they have MANY problems, the cyanide trade is just one (and lower on the list of them).
People have asked, "what do we do". The response from you all has been "support net caught". Um, am I missing something here? Is there a CDT in place in the states, or abroad? Is there a certified clean source for hobbyists to attach to?
You say "support farmed corals and live rock"? Great, so what do all the villages do that CAN'T farm the above due to location. It's been said to me that more then 50% of areas villages are located in, are horriable for both ocean holding and farming. Sure, they could do rock, but transporting it from their locals would be a loss leader for them.
Unfortunatly, saying this trade will get clean on it's own, is like saying world peace will happen under the worlds current governing bodies.
Yah, I know, Haribon stole money, MAC doesn't hunt, it's all Steves fault, IMA squanderred their funding, blah blah blah.
Build a bridge, get over it, and move along :roll:
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Gresham nails it in one sentence!
"Yah, I know, Haribon stole money, MAC doesn't hunt, it's all Steves fault, IMA squanderred their funding, blah blah blah. "
Steve
"Yah, I know, Haribon stole money, MAC doesn't hunt, it's all Steves fault, IMA squanderred their funding, blah blah blah. "
Steve
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Rich,
This should take 20 minutes;
I cannot answer for others but for myself, this is not difficult as its what I do .
If I could leave my current job for a year to do a training gig...along with 6 Filipino co-trainer salaries to and travel/material expenses we could generate enough converted cyanide fishers [ about a thousand] to provide the tipping point required to displace the remaining core population of cyanide divers.
We would dove-tail with the efforts of EASTI and collaborate with them strenthening each others programs and adding to the conversion counts.
.
We would also enlist targeted local governments and fisheries extention offices in cyanide strongholds to assist and involve in the trainings that would be run in the center of the fishing villages.
We would also carry a blessing and support letter from the chief of the Bureau of Fisheries....my old boss.
We would pay dominant cyanide dealers in each area for housing and food for the training team , we would also rent boats from them to train with.
We would use locals and local facilities whereever possible and live where we go.
In 20 roving trainings starting in our training teams hometown in Pangasinan, Luzon...we would cover the critical regions of the country and centers of cyanide fishing activity.
We would generate momentum and expectation as we go. Advance work would preceed each arrival and one diver would stay behind in follow up and monitoring mode for the duration of the next training. Then he would rotate with another.
Trainers are the advance and follow-up people as they...and only they cannot be fooled and waylaid by the predictable entry level flim-flam that all cyanide divers put on.
Money should be raised by a group that the training team answers to and reports to. There must be a pegged to performance schedule for monthy disbursement of cash and salary.
The training team should not be in charge of its own budget...or evaluation.
MASNA for example could serve as an umbrella to shake down every club in America and for revenue and each club that exceeds contributions of say 3K could send an observer to follow his groups contribution.
The hobby clubs could do this....make history and trump the business and NGO communities claims to responsible behavior and intention.
100 clubs or [sponsors]...2k average contribution and it could be done.
Matching funds could be appealed for to match our newly emerging governorship and leadership.
As the magic tripwire number of 200 convertees is attained [ 3 months into it], money gets easier to raise as everyone wants in on the success.
Canadians and Euros and pubic aquariums can be approached once it becomes a sure thing on film.
They'll al want to be associates then.
Well????
Steve
PS.
Leaving a mortgage, a misses and a one year old munchikin to do this can ruin a life and I sure don't take it lightly as backseat critics and recreational posters do.
This should take 20 minutes;
I cannot answer for others but for myself, this is not difficult as its what I do .
If I could leave my current job for a year to do a training gig...along with 6 Filipino co-trainer salaries to and travel/material expenses we could generate enough converted cyanide fishers [ about a thousand] to provide the tipping point required to displace the remaining core population of cyanide divers.
We would dove-tail with the efforts of EASTI and collaborate with them strenthening each others programs and adding to the conversion counts.
.
We would also enlist targeted local governments and fisheries extention offices in cyanide strongholds to assist and involve in the trainings that would be run in the center of the fishing villages.
We would also carry a blessing and support letter from the chief of the Bureau of Fisheries....my old boss.
We would pay dominant cyanide dealers in each area for housing and food for the training team , we would also rent boats from them to train with.
We would use locals and local facilities whereever possible and live where we go.
In 20 roving trainings starting in our training teams hometown in Pangasinan, Luzon...we would cover the critical regions of the country and centers of cyanide fishing activity.
We would generate momentum and expectation as we go. Advance work would preceed each arrival and one diver would stay behind in follow up and monitoring mode for the duration of the next training. Then he would rotate with another.
Trainers are the advance and follow-up people as they...and only they cannot be fooled and waylaid by the predictable entry level flim-flam that all cyanide divers put on.
Money should be raised by a group that the training team answers to and reports to. There must be a pegged to performance schedule for monthy disbursement of cash and salary.
The training team should not be in charge of its own budget...or evaluation.
MASNA for example could serve as an umbrella to shake down every club in America and for revenue and each club that exceeds contributions of say 3K could send an observer to follow his groups contribution.
The hobby clubs could do this....make history and trump the business and NGO communities claims to responsible behavior and intention.
100 clubs or [sponsors]...2k average contribution and it could be done.
Matching funds could be appealed for to match our newly emerging governorship and leadership.
As the magic tripwire number of 200 convertees is attained [ 3 months into it], money gets easier to raise as everyone wants in on the success.
Canadians and Euros and pubic aquariums can be approached once it becomes a sure thing on film.
They'll al want to be associates then.
Well????
Steve
PS.
Leaving a mortgage, a misses and a one year old munchikin to do this can ruin a life and I sure don't take it lightly as backseat critics and recreational posters do.
cortez marine":2cytnnsf said:
Since you aren't going to leave your job, and since that is a Steve centric plan, I am not sure how it helps me or others know what to do to help or how it would be possible to pull off without you. Got anything practical to put forward? Why not start a ball rolling to get it done without you in the field?
I don't know who this is supposed to be aimed at, but none the less it seems like a cheap pot shot. No one is asking you to leave your job or your family, so I really am confused.
The only thing I have been asking is for a practical answer to the question 'how do we help effect change in the hobby and industry'.
In general though, the tone on the PS leaves me feeling like you aren't actually interested in discussion, but more interested in scoring perceived demagogue points which makes me very sad. I hope I am wrong.
Thales,
What is needed is leadership, individuals who have credibility and are "clean" within the trade. Strong rethoric but no results is what we have seen in the last 4-5 years from some of the participants in this forum.
It is evident that with the "old troops" nothing has been or will be accomplished. Instead of helping they're chasing potential contributors to the cause away. The net training can be done in the Philippines by fisherfolks who have become trainers.. and very good ones.
A good star would be to find the way to increase fish prices to community level. That by itself would have very positive results on different issues as economics and fish quality to collectors level.
What is needed is leadership, individuals who have credibility and are "clean" within the trade. Strong rethoric but no results is what we have seen in the last 4-5 years from some of the participants in this forum.
It is evident that with the "old troops" nothing has been or will be accomplished. Instead of helping they're chasing potential contributors to the cause away. The net training can be done in the Philippines by fisherfolks who have become trainers.. and very good ones.
A good star would be to find the way to increase fish prices to community level. That by itself would have very positive results on different issues as economics and fish quality to collectors level.
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