What can be done - split from 'livestock suppliers list'

[Anonymous]

Its like a phone conversation - it seems like a bad idea to record it and broadcast it, but it seems OK to tell people about the conversation. Phone conversations and in person conversations are relayed here all the time and no one seems to have an issue with those. If Peter had phoned or emailed me I would have posted about that in basically the same way.

It has been my understanding that the private in private message meant simply 'not public'. I do not believe it is an implicit NDA any more than a phone conversation is an implicit NDA. I do believe that internet decorum and common courtesy demand that the actual messages not be shared unless both parties agree.

IMO the big problem is when people share the gist of PM's and there is disagreement regarding the accuracy of that gist. In this case, I didn't see how it was possible for such disagreement to arise since the messages were so short, and I wouldn't have been upset if the shoe was on the other foot.

That said, pm's and the sharing thereof is, in the words of another admin, 'one giant, frustrating gray area' and if Peter is upset I apologize.

 

[Justin74]

Very disheartening
From this discussion the only thing so far as a hobbyist I can contribute at this moment with sound certainty is my coolness.

So I hearby nominate myself as one of the cool kids!
I beleive that I could pursuade and convey with a sparkle in my smile and the hip threads I insist on wearing that my net caught fish byfar exceeds the sexyness of any others..
The fact that my fish is fat and healthy and lives beyond 2 months will help with this. The fact that my fish is too damn cool to be wasting it's time with drugs like formalin and copper; The fact that my fish doesnt spend it's day with it's nose in the corner of my tank or constantly flashing against rocks and substrate will also demonstrate on how your fish wishes they were only as cool as mine. And I will flagrently boast this on BB's with tenacity and conviction!

-Justin

 

[midgetwaiter]

On a broad note I don't see any way and a PI or Indonesian cert program can work well without a CDT. As a matter of fact I'm not sure it can work at all unless the cyanide use in food fishing is also addressed otherwise it will always be just around the corner waiting to grab us again.

I think it would be difficult to ask LFS' to contribute to anything beyond their own short term survival. Right now most LFS' in my area are barely squeaking by. As always, I am dubious about private companies doing something just because it's the (apparently) "right" thing to do. Many reefers in my area seem to be so price fixated that they'll even buy animals from inhumane LFS' just to save a buck or 2. Sadly, most American reef keepers don't seem to be able to differentiate between price and cost.-Jim

I think this is the most clued in post I have ever seen on the subject. If I were to put together a store that only carried stuff that I am sure is clean and collected in a sustainable way I'd be in business for 2 months, realistically it's those 40 "Nemos" a week that let me pay the power bill not the 2 Purple Tangs. There is ALWAYS going to be somebody around the corner willing to import dubious fish and blow them out as fast as they can. As Bookfish points out, this guy's success is almost certain given the attitude of most hobby types, wave bye bye to your 40 ORA clown sales a week as soon as he opens his doors. I see it almost constantly, especially in some our high end FW stuff like discus. We bring some of the nicest fish I have ever seen in direct from Thailand and they really get people's attention. Unfortunately we also have a lot of people asking why our discus are so much more expensive than the juiced up, hormone fed crap down the road. They will even call me when they run into problems with said crap, so much that my first question about discus with stringy white poop is "you didn't buy them here did you?"

Even given that trying to fight the lowest price wins attitude is probably a losing proposition (look at the rise of Walmart for an example) I'm willing to try. I can make a case for tank bred stuff pretty easily, maybe you do pay a touch more sometimes but the benefits are pretty stark. I have a tougher time making the net caught case though, mostly because it is so difficult to know if a fish is or isn't juiced. Maybe that's a failure on my part, who has a good explanation of this issue they use with their customers? If we could get to the point that shoppers demanded net caught or tank bred fish much of the above discussion would be moot, we wouldn't have a choice any more.