What can be done - split from 'livestock suppliers list'

[clarionreef]

Rich writes;
"The only thing I have been asking is for a practical answer to the question 'how do we help effect change in the hobby and industry'."

Rich,
Asking such a loaded question and claiming it to be a simple request trivializes things.
The very question of the easy fix you think is possible by just being nice is galling.
This issue has wrought death and death threats, great waste, terrible loss and great sacrifice.
It has also seen hundreds of conversions and untold thousands of coral heads saved.
To render a recipe to replicate what I have done so that others may enjoy the wonderful sport of collector training is not so simple.
Does it appear to be as easy that any others can replicate it if only they had the recipe?
Did we make it appear so easy that anyone could do it?
This is an old story and the recipe has been copied, stolen and used to write grants many times to little success.

Pardon my testiness but you are like the 10th guy to ask for it.
As I said ...and you missed....
"I cannot answer for others but for myself, this is not difficult as its what I do . "
I cannot speak for others and you will never get some recipe book to hand off to other cooks that you understand better.

MAC has a huge recipe book ...and so does CCIF.
Mamti collects recipes and has tried to run them for years.
Its not the recipes...but the cooks and you need to understand that to get it right.
Commercial fish collector training made easy ...for any Tom Dick and Harry is just not on the bookshelves yet and not the way to approach this at all.
What I wrote you is from memory of actual success in-country...so its not some hopeful...shot in the dark recipe .

If it were not true what I have just written, why have the great minds and groups that have focused on this trade and spent so much time and money not made the question moot and my little story irrelevant by now?
If you were sincere...how do you not find any thing of value in the rough draft proposal?
How do you not see that what my training team has done is not neccessarily transferable to another.
People have been trying to duplicate our early successes for years without us so that they...they could siphon funds and minimize trainers.
Using our 2nd stringers to run others programs to save money has happened several times.
Frustration always set in as they do not get the same results that we made history with and it must be galling.
So....in all sincerity....I can only answer for what I can do....not others....same as you.
I have a ready made team that works. We are tight and we are competent.
If this doesn't fit for you... then its as much about you as I..
Have you considered that?
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Rich writes;
"The only thing I have been asking is for a practical answer to the question 'how do we help effect change in the hobby and industry'."

Rich,
Asking such a loaded question and claiming it to be a simple request trivializes things.

I think its only a loaded to you because of your history, and I don't see how it trivializes anything. Its a question of practicality, not theory.

What started me asking this question was my wife asking me where we should send some money this year to help with the reefs, specifically to help with what I think is important to the reefs. I had no answer.

The very question of the easy fix you think is possible by just being nice is galling.

Where did I say I think there is an easy fix? Where did I say anything about the fix working by 'just being nice'? The answer is nowhere.

I am concerned that you are reading things into posts that aren't there.
If you are unclear as to what I am asking or why, please don't assume like you did above. Ask me for clarification before you get galled with me for something I didn't even say or think.

This issue has wrought death and death threats, great waste, terrible loss and great sacrifice.
It has also seen hundreds of conversions and untold thousands of coral heads saved.
To render a recipe to replicate what I have done so that others may enjoy the wonderful sport of collector training is not so simple.
Does it appear to be as easy that any others can replicate it if only they had the recipe?
Did we make it appear so easy that anyone could do it?
This is an old story and the recipe has been copied, stolen and used to write grants many times to little success.

If you are the only person who can do it, and you are unwilling to do it because of family commitments, then what's the point of saying you can do it? If you are willing to do it, and you are the only one who can, I am eager to get you started.

Pardon my testiness but you are like the 10th guy to ask for it.

Ask for what?

As I said ...and you missed....
"I cannot answer for others but for myself, this is not difficult as its what I do . "
I cannot speak for others and you will never get some recipe book to hand off to other cooks that you understand better.

I did not ask you to speak for others. I did not miss what you wrote and I only asked what YOU might do to get the ball rolling for others. As you say, you have a kid and a wife and therefore are not going back into the field so it is going to have to be someone besides you doing the work.

MAC has a huge recipe book ...and so does CCIF.
Mamti collects recipes and has tried to run them for years.
Its not the recipes...but the cooks and you need to understand that to get it right.

And as I asked last time you brought up the cooks in this thread - how do we get to cooks to cook better?

Commercial fish collector training made easy ...for any Tom Dick and Harry is just not on the bookshelves yet and not the way to approach this at all.

Good thing I never asked for such a book, nor suggested that that was the way to approach this.

]What I wrote you is from memory of actual success in-country...so its not some hopeful...shot in the dark recipe .

Are you going to be doing it again any time soon?

If it were not true what I have just written, why have the great minds and groups that have focused on this trade and spent so much time and money not made the question moot and my little story irrelevant by now?

I don't really understand this paragraph.

If you were sincere...

First you call me a newcomer, a backseat critic, and a recreational poster, now you attack my sincerity. This is attacking the man and not the argument, and it is really petty, and I am not gong to respond as it does nothing by mitigate and derail the entire discussion. As a site admin I do however ask you to stop doing it to me or anyone else.

]how do you not find any thing of value in the rough draft proposal?

Because you seem to be saying only you can do it, but that due to family commitments you won't.

How do you not see that what my training team has done is not neccessarily transferable to another.

I do see that. It shines very brightly and it prompted my responses. If it is all about you, but you won't do it, it isn't really helpful in figuring out what to do.

People have been trying to duplicate our early successes for years without us so that they...they could siphon funds and minimize trainers.
Using our 2nd stringers to run others programs to save money has happened several times.
Frustration always set in as they do not get the same results that we made history with and it must be galling.

And that has little to do with what can be done now. What should people do to duplicate your early success?

So....in all sincerity....I can only answer for what I can do....not others....same as you.
I have a ready made team that works. We are tight and we are competent.

And you have said you are unable to do the work you think needs to be done at this time. If I am wrong about that, the question becomes 'how do we get this team back out doing the work?'

If this doesn't fit for you... then its as much about you as I..
Have you considered that?
Steve

Of course it is about me - I am trying to figure out what I can do to help and where I can tell other to go if they want to help. So far, the answer is a frustrating nothing and nowhere.

 

[Anonymous]

heh-hitting the nail on the head as usual, righty 8)

 

[clarionreef]

Rich,
I relize you do not understand me at all....so it falls to me to try and understand you.

What level of project are you guys looking for? Or are you looking still?
I thought it was the big one...
If its just a few thousand...I honestly don't know.
Each Filipino trainer alone would cost 8 K and we'd have 5 of them.
5K could help a lot and would be appreciated but a training team cannot go forth w/ just one salary secured.. I certainly could not go forth without the team and could not work for free either...
So...are we not already out of the ballpark?
If its not a 200k ...year long...solve the problem project...like the CORL one of a few years ago...then what scale is it you are asking about?

The only small scale project I saw that a few thousand could help in was Les. But Les has unfortunately been very distracted and unfocused this year. I support Les...but I am not them.
I can't answer for their lapse of interest.
Perhaps they are stabilizing now. They have a new manager and are reorganizing. I hope they recover as they are the most genuine netcaught group of collectors in Indonesia.

I have no other small projects other then a Mexico live rock and zoanthid farm in mind but this does nothing for the Philippine/Indo poison fishery problem.

Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Thales,

Why to keep trying with the "old troops"? The last messages exchanged between you and S. Robinson can tell you many things.

It is more important to find the way to provide the collectors with economic incentives before getting involve in more net training.

The net training program that took place when S. Robinson was working for IMA where good but they didn't solve the problem, a great percentage of trained collectors went back to cyanide due to a lack of economic incentives from the industry. A good number of trained collectors still fish with nets but remain poor. Low fish prices push them to put more pressure on the reefs to collect more and more fish. Mortality rates keep high at collection points. I wouldn't call that "early success".

Without $ incentives the collectors won't take care of collected fishes neither the coral reefs.

 

[Anonymous]

Thales,

Why to keep trying with the "old troops"? The last messages exchanged between you and S. Robinson can tell you many things.

Because Steve is a friend of mine with experience that I don't have. He is also local.

It is more important to find the way to provide the collectors with economic incentives before getting involve in more net training.

Anything would help. There doesn't seem to be any way for any of us to actually do anything but talk about how it would be nice to help.

The net training program that took place when S. Robinson was working for IMA where good but they didn't solve the problem, a great percentage of trained collectors went back to cyanide due to a lack of economic incentives from the industry. A good number of trained collectors still fish with nets but remain poor. Low fish prices push them to put more pressure on the reefs to collect more and more fish. Mortality rates keep high at collection points. I wouldn't call that "early success".

Without $ incentives the collectors won't take care of collected fishes neither the coral reefs.

Makes sense to me. What do we do about it?

 

[Anonymous]

Rich,
I relize you do not understand me at all....so it falls to me to try and understand you.

That seems a little rude and I don't understand it. I have been working hard to understand you. I have asked you many questions that would help both of us, but you don't answer them.

BTW, Steve, I like you and consider you a friend - if I didn't, I wouldn't even bother trying.

What level of project are you guys looking for? Or are you looking still?
I thought it was the big one...
If its just a few thousand...I honestly don't know.

Steve, we, and people in general are looking for anything. This isn't personal or just about one club. I want to know if there is any answer besides the essentially useless general 'support net caught and aquaculture' answer that I can give people when they ask how they can help make the industry/hobby better.
If currently the answer is nothing, which is seems to be, that's fine.

 

[Anonymous]

I like a good debate amongst friends Proves we all have our own ideas :lol:

I agree with Rich though, it's not I, or us, looking for something, it's hobbyists in general (and even non hobbyists)>

Knowing 99.99% of people can put something in place like this, we look towards people that have offererd not only plans in the past, but actions. Your the most vocal on this Steve, so we looked to you for guidance. We're not asking you to go train, leave your family, etc, but rather, what can we do as people wanting to contribute to this cause. you may be the wrong person to be askiong though, as this hits closer to home for you, then any of us. We didn't send ourselves on our own dime to go train on our own. We however do see that passion in you, and were hoping you could help us channel our passions in a minor reflection of what you have done.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Thales,


There are people (natives) with experience in the Philippines, they're good trainers and nice people. :lol:

Unfortunatelly isolated efforts won't make any dent. As example we have the project Peter is working with Ferdinand and the Les Coop, seems that they are not taking off because of lack of support from the industry.

How many of the readers in this forum are contributing to any of those two projects?. This is something deja vu. After more than 20 years of follow up and some years really involved trying to help I can say that we are running out of time with Ph and Ind.

What do we do about it? Reverse the situation and make sure that "isolated efforts can make something", encourage importers and retailers to support the initiatives above mentioned. That's the only way we can help. If any of those two initiatives won't work.. hope is gone

 

[Anonymous]

Thales,


There are people (natives) with experience in the Philippines, they're good trainers and nice people. :lol:

Unfortunatelly isolated efforts won't make any dent. As example we have the project Peter is working with Ferdinand and the Les Coop, seems that they are not taking off because of lack of support from the industry.

I think they need a new paradigm. Sell direct to the consumer because selling to wholesalers has soooo many issues.

How many of the readers in this forum are contributing to any of those two projects?. This is something deja vu. After more than 20 years of follow up and some years really involved trying to help I can say that we are running out of time with Ph and Ind.

Can you point us to a way to get condensed info on and contribute to those projects?

What do we do about it? Reverse the situation and make sure that "isolated efforts can make something", encourage importers and retailers to support the initiatives above mentioned. That's the only way we can help. If any of those two initiatives won't work.. hope is gone

Any practical idea on how to do that? Without practical means, I don't see much in the way of success.

 

[Anonymous]

Thales,


There are people (natives) with experience in the Philippines, they're good trainers and nice people. :lol:

Unfortunatelly isolated efforts won't make any dent. As example we have the project Peter is working with Ferdinand and the Les Coop, seems that they are not taking off because of lack of support from the industry.

I think they need a new paradigm. Sell direct to the consumer because selling to wholesalers has soooo many issues.

How many of the readers in this forum are contributing to any of those two projects?. This is something deja vu. After more than 20 years of follow up and some years really involved trying to help I can say that we are running out of time with Ph and Ind.

Can you point us to a way to get condensed info on and contribute to those projects?

What do we do about it? Reverse the situation and make sure that "isolated efforts can make something", encourage importers and retailers to support the initiatives above mentioned. That's the only way we can help. If any of those two initiatives won't work.. hope is gone

Any practical idea on how to do that? Without practical means, I don't see much in the way of success.

repsonse to first bolded quote:

i keep hearing this 'from the industry' mantra spewed out here time and time again, and i've yet to even here a definition of what that means, lol (though i think i know what the intended segment is-the import/wholesale part of the chain).

i think the hobbyists are more the industry-they create the demand, don't they ?

all wholesalers/importers/retail stores do is supply a consumer with what they want in order to make a buck off of them-like all of commerce. why should the supply middlemen be held accountable, if at all? is it the supply chains side's obligation to play morality big brother for/to the consumer/hobbyist? (most of which are completely ignorant as to what's going on anywhere on the other side of the store's tanks -much like how most folks have no clue as to the fact that a tomato does NOT come from a grocer's shelf, heh )

let the end user decide how their goods should be obtained-it's very telling about the way people think that such a stink is made about 'blood diamonds' yet the murder of seals and whales is back on the rise, after certain govt's are allowing these to contnue again practically unabated.diamonds are far more important to us as a culture than whales are :idea:

response to second bolded quote:

do you have any idea as to how economically impossible that is?

some simple examples-what individual consumer would be willing to pay 'made freight' for even an entire aquarium's worth of livestock
shipped at once ? (can you afford a $1500.00 flame angel? :lol

who'd be willling to pay all of the licensing fees for one aquarium's worth of livestock ?

what about doa's/daa's , screwed transits ?

like it or not-the only way these animals can be the least bit feasably shipped is at the wholesale/importer numbers level-no real way around that

and the only way to get ANY type of uniform cyanide elimination HAS to come from the exporting countries side first and foremost-if that doesn't happen, it becomes a pipe dream from well wishers and nothing more-you cannot enforce from the outside in, no matter what it is you're trying to enforce-we've already seen proof of this for every attempt made-

even if there was a cdt in place stateside and juiced product could be efficiently banned from the consumers here in the u.s., do you honestly think that that would stop cyanide use? lol

the problem is that every country as a governing body of commerce (and most of the consumers (read: hobbyists) see these critters as a commodity-which in fact, they are -(they happen to pay for my living, too, heh) they aren't exclusively a commodity, but as long as they hold economic value, the typical shortsighted humankind will try to avail themselves of the 'prosperity' they can provide as quickly and as rapidly as possible, like everything else we see as being able to provide us with material gain

small local ventures may become and stay 'clean', but on a large/'industry wide' scale ? not a chance

most hobbyists and many many retailers, even- have no clue as to the sheer numbers of animals this hobby as an industry deals in, worldwide-it's fairly staggering


the attitudes of the planet's population in general to larger more serious global environmental issues should pretty much illustrate to you just how impossible a wish it is that you have-people aren't even capable of properly mobilizing as a species to save their own PLANET (or the global issue/s affecting the existence of the reefs themselves(warming and pollution)-forget about the fishing issue for a moment, heh)..

i predict that the day when humanity as a species takes 'green action' to properly preserve the earth is the same day when cyanide and reef destruction start to become a thing of the past, regardless of the small (and noble/honorable) attempts made here and there in the teeny pockets of the areas where this industry exists

or it will be the day we do ourselves in as a species (which seems more and more a nearer reality) that the planet, and the reefs, will no longer have to deal with our 'influences'

and one more morsel for thought-what good does it do to stop things like cyanide if the reefs will be dead 50 years later anyway ? shouldn't we be focusing on those matters with far more vigor and fervor?

how many of the folks here claiming to be a champion of nature, the environment, and reefs drive a car, or keep a tank using electricity ? :lol:

as long as you do, your platitudes aren't worth even a fiat dollar

(though they might falsely allow you to ease your consciense and help you sleep better thinking you're actually doing something, when in point of fact, you aren't).


happy new year

 

[Anonymous]

So - chalk vitz up on the side that says there is nothing to be done!

Its only economically impossible if we accept the current paradigm.
But if a small collecting village also owns the importer stateside and sells online we might be able to get 'green' animals into the tanks of people who want them at competitive prices.

 

[PeterIMA]

Vitz and Thales, You both have made good comments. I can see that both viewpoints (the importer's and hobbyist's) have merit. We do need to find solutions. That is what I am trying to do. I have spent a lot of time on this forum trying to convince those in the trade that reform is necessary to ensure a sustainalble trade. That means to ensure there are enough healthy reefs to support the long-term harvest of marine aquaium fishes and invertebrates.

The one aspect that has only been partly discussed is the fact that competition by US importers and transhippers is forcing down the prices paid to exporters and ultimately to the collectors. This in turn results in the use of more cyanide and more reef degredation. As the reefs degrade so does their associated fish communities. This can not continue and will ultimately destroy the marine aquarium trade.

So, as Thales has stated "What can be done that is practical?" I have put my support behind EASTI and Telapak to ensure that the collectors obtain the economic incentives needed to ensure ethical collection practices and better shipping and handling procedures are developed and implemented. It is feasible to do this.

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

So - chalk vitz up on the side that says there is nothing to be done!

Its only economically impossible if we accept the current paradigm.
But if a small collecting village also owns the importer stateside and sells online we might be able to get 'green' animals into the tanks of people who want them at competitive prices.

no i'm not saying there's nothing to be done-but i'm a pragmatist of sorts, here.

i'm saying that there needs to first be huge paradigm shift in human civilization and cultural outlook first, and that in the present scheme of things, not only can the entire issue of cyanide NOT be 'fixed' it doesn't even matter to think about it if there are no reefs left alive in the next 50-100 years, which is where the planet is going presently.

Its only economically impossible if we accept the current paradigm.
But if a small collecting village also owns the importer stateside and sells online we might be able to get 'green' animals into the tanks of people who want them at competitive prices

ok, fish or cut bait-now you're talking wholesaling again? i though you were trying to get away from that and go directly to the end consumer? :?:

what diff does it make if the wholesaler is directly connected with the village? that's the only way to ensure no cyanide? are you joking? that ensures nothing, number one-number two any wholesaler/importer could bring in non juiced product-IF THERE WAS ENOUGH NON JUICED PRODUCT TO SELL, AND ENOUGH PEOPLE WERE TRULY INTERESTED IN BUYING IT, heh-at the present, it's pretty much near ZERO on both counts...

don't forget the consumer demand for critters in europe and the east-what about their lack of interest in 'green' product, and how it affects the ability/desire for 'green' collection-you think if just 'mericans start crying that will change much of anything overseas-you think the fillipinos,thai, vietnamese, etc etc really give a hoot about the latest american 'eco-fad' ? :lol:

hell no, they want our DOLLARS, period.

do you think the 'hobbyist masses' really give a flying fork about any of this stuff? of course they don't! more threads get run on petco bashing on rc because some ignoramus sees a trigger in too small a tank, or a sick fish on display! these are NOT the things those ignorami sould be even looking at!so where is your demand going to come from-you think a few hundred hobbyists spread out across the usa will be able to make any opening of an import venture feasible for even a day? do you know what a wholesaler/importers DAILY overhead is like (at least a major one) ? no one will be opening a new ops for this type of venture anytime soon, is my bet

sorry to say it, but yer pipe dreamin, bubbeleh

food for thought:

there's a commercial airing nowadays which uses the following as sales pitch braggartry-something to the effect that a chevy is sold in america every 14 seconds, or some such hoopledydoo, heh-think about that...that's only chevys, and that's only here-now think about everything pollutionwise that that car represents, not just in emmisions-think about all of the chemicals that had to go into that car,the steel/aluminum/metal from the pvc and rubber, to the acid in the batteries, the computer chips,and how much crap THEIR production is is also farkin up the planet, and THEN realize that this is but one end consumer industry, etc etc

we're (the u.s.) 4% of the planet's population, and we consume over 25% of its finished goods-do you now get why we cannot do anything about ending cyanide?, or how we're pretty much guaranteeing the doom of our planetary ecology?-heh wait till china REALLY starts to wake up-imagine every chinese family owning a car within 20 years, and much less stringent emmisions controls on their exhausts

polar bears are now on the shyterlist, and the current administration is simply trying its best to ignore plain old cold hard factual science-like ignoring chunks of ice that size of texas spliiting off of the ice caps etc etc-and they're a high visibilty issue that have more 'draw' than nemo

it's just waaaay too huge a deal to even begin to dent with your best intentions and dollars to do so-if helping the small isolated efforts help ease your conscience-good for you, and maybe it's better than nothing-but just realize that it really won't solve anything that you (we)want solved

now i gotta go home and scrub meself silly before i go make dinner, my hands stink from anemones that got caught in a drain overnight

 

[Anonymous]

Its only economically impossible if we accept the current paradigm.
But if a small collecting village also owns the importer stateside and sells online we might be able to get 'green' animals into the tanks of people who want them at competitive prices

ok, fish or cut bait-now you're talking wholesaling again? i though you were trying to get away from that and go directly to the end consumer? :?:

Hence my clarification.

what diff does it make if the wholesaler is directly connected with the village? that's the only way to ensure no cyanide? are you joking? that ensures nothing, number one-number two any wholesaler/importer could bring in non juiced product-IF THERE WAS ENOUGH NON JUICED PRODUCT TO SELL, AND ENOUGH PEOPLE WERE TRULY INTERESTED IN BUYING IT, heh-at the present, it's pretty much near ZERO on both counts...

If the wholesaler is directly connected they may be more likely to give the collectors a better wage. If not, the wholesaler would just go to the cheapest source. However if the source were doing the selling...
I never said it was the only way to ensure no cyanide.
Some people are truly interested in buying non juiced stuff, however currently there is no way to do this - this forum has made that abundantly clear.

don't forget the consumer demand for critters in europe and the east-what about their lack of interest in 'green' product, and how it affects the ability/desire for 'green' collection-you think if just 'mericans start crying that will change much of anything overseas-you think the fillipinos,thai, vietnamese, etc etc really give a hoot about the latest american 'eco-fad' ? :lol:

hell no, they want our DOLLARS, period.

Geese v, I am not looking to fix everything in one fell swoop. I am looking for a start.

do you think the 'hobbyist masses' really give a flying fork about any of this stuff? of course they don't! more threads get run on petco bashing on rc because some ignoramus sees a trigger in too small a tank, or a sick fish on display! these are NOT the things those ignorami sould be even looking at!so where is your demand going to come from-you think a few hundred hobbyists spread out across the usa will be able to make any opening of an import venture feasible for even a day? do you know what a wholesaler/importers DAILY overhead is like (at least a major one) ? no one will be opening a new ops for this type of venture anytime soon, is my bet

We have tons of threads talking about how amazing it is that niche coral sellers seem to be doing so well, so perhaps it is possible for a niche market to be created. Heck, the marine center is still in business and they are way high priced.
I do not in any way think the 'hobby masses' are interested. However, when the hobby cool kids start doing something is often catches on. If the cool kids got behind a venture, I think it has a chance.

it's just waaaay too huge a deal to even begin to dent with your best intentions and dollars to do so-if helping the small isolated efforts help ease your conscience-good for you, and maybe it's better than nothing-but just realize that it really won't solve anything that you (we)want solved

It depends on what your definition of solve is and what you see the problems are. It may not solve the entire issue, but it would give an alternative to the status quo - an alternative that doesn't exist right now in any shape or form. It would also be a start, and with out a start nothing will ever happen.

Do I think it would really work? I don't know, its a new idea for me.

 

[Anonymous]

IF THERE WAS ENOUGH NON JUICED PRODUCT TO SELL

Do you really want me to repeat ALL the countries that DO NOT use cyanide that the "MO Industry" sells? :roll: Come on, you know there is a load of net caught fish being sold. A few countries use cyanide, and yes, the bulk of our bread and butter come from there, but there is pleny of clean supply that no one seems to talk about.

 

[Anonymous]

How are we to tell the clean from the dirty? :mrgreen:

 

[Anonymous]

WEll, let's start with Hawaii's endemics, then we'll move to the Atlantic speices, then onto the Red Sea. After those, we'll explore the Eastern Pacific species, then onto the Tongans. Of course, we'll have to explore the species from SI, Vanauatu, the Marshalls, Fiji, and ..........

The list is huge Rich. The coloration of many fish is a tip off of where they came from. A CB angel from Tonga, looks diffenent the a Figian, which is different the a PI one. Most fish look different from different oceans, well, except Green Chromis. At least with them, if your getting a large one, it surely didn't come from PI, as with many other large fish :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Then why doesn't MAC certify those fish? No CDT needed!

 

[Anonymous]

IF THERE WAS ENOUGH NON JUICED PRODUCT TO SELL

Do you really want me to repeat ALL the countries that DO NOT use cyanide that the "MO Industry" sells? :roll: Come on, you know there is a load of net caught fish being sold. A few countries use cyanide, and yes, the bulk of our bread and butter come from there, but there is pleny of clean supply that no one seems to talk about.

i was referring to an objectively 'certified' product from juice areas where the b&b come from that's been the focus of the whole cyanide based discussion