What can be done - split from 'livestock suppliers list'

[clarionreef]

"How can we, as reef hobbysist, minimize our impact on natural reef habitats?"
Piero,
After those sentiments....
You just named a whos who list of the cyanide trade.
Not all of course...but many of them.
Its a quandry...I know.
Steve
PS.
However....the issue is on pause until the next sudden threat from on high. This "caring" thing seems to run in cycles in our kind.

 

[clarionreef]

Same ol...same ol....
They wrote;

"We order our divers to use net "to catch fish so that the quality of fish can be traded on."

They ordered them???
So the divers worked it all out on their own from the companies telling them to?
And they somehow got the nets on their own as well...
Wow...why didn't anyone else think of just ordering the guys to do the right thing?
Actually they all claim to be netcaught as do the Philippine exporters.
Its akin to the Mcdonalds position paper on nutrition and the environment.
Everyone has an answer now....everyone.
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Piero,

No doubt that some of those exporters are shipping cyanide caught fish to North America. We also know that IMA has a list of facilities in the Philippines testing positive for cyanide, Steve also "knows" who is selling cyanide collected fish. Between IMA and Steve they could identify (with proof) who the bad boys are, together they could submit a list to importers and retailers of bad sources of fish. But who is going to take action? Many importers and retailers have been getting cheap fish from Ph and Ind. They do not care.

For decades people, within the trade and participating in this and other forums, have identified who are the bad boys but nothing has been done. Hobbyists can do almost nothing to fix it..... the majority of them are looking for cheap fish also.

Importers should boycot the bad boys selling CN fish from the Ph and Ind or other countries where it is used. Importers are the ones who could play a crucial role to change things around. There are some of them doing a good job getting fish from good sources..... but many are getting cheap cyanide collected fish.

 

[Anonymous]

Piero,

No doubt that some of those exporters are shipping cyanide caught fish to North America. We also know that IMA has a list of facilities in the Philippines testing positive for cyanide, Steve also "knows" who is selling cyanide collected fish. Between IMA and Steve they could identify (with proof) who the bad boys are, together they could submit a list to importers and retailers of bad sources of fish. But who is going to take action? Many importers and retailers have been getting cheap fish from Ph and Ind. They do not care.

For decades people, within the trade and participating in this and other forums, have identified who are the bad boys but nothing has been done. Hobbyists can do almost nothing to fix it..... the majority of them are looking for cheap fish also.

Importers should boycot the bad boys selling CN fish from the Ph and Ind or other countries where it is used. Importers are the ones who could play a crucial role to change things around. There are some of them doing a good job getting fish from good sources..... but many are getting cheap cyanide collected fish.

Excellent post I couldn't have said it better myslef, especially:

Many importers and retailers have been getting cheap fish from Ph and Ind. They do not care.

They only care enough to hide it, deny it, and lie about it. No one gets duped into buying doped fish, it's always the dollar signs.

 

[clarionreef]

Between IMA and Steve they could identify (with proof) who the bad boys are, together they could submit a list to importers and retailers of bad sources of fish.
But who is going to take action?

THE GENERAL SYSTEM SUPPLIES IT. NOT JUST SOME FURTIVE LIST OF BAD GUYS...
We're all in it.
We're all consumers of it.
We all have worked in a trade based on it.
We're all Spartacus!

We exposed it for many years to our own detriment.
And we did make progress until the inept professional reform Incs. took over the issue, got it funded and made hay off of it.
They have made careers out of it now for a long time. How can one seriously regard the bad guys anymore without reference to these full time, well paid spokespersons and apologists for the trade in poisoned fishes.

Hiding from and avoiding this reality does harm to the cause and the eventual resolution of our little inconvenient problem.We needed commercial field work done and all we got was image consulting and city people pretending to be real divers and fish handlers.
Shooting the messengers for bringing out the hard truth was also ill advised.
Giving them a chance....well, that has been done time and time again.

They have squandered the wonderful opportunity that has been available and have sat on the issue now for a full decade without producing much more then false claims of progress..

This whole thing could have been solved in a year or two by commercial cohorts. In the hands of the wrong stuff however. it is impossible to solve.

Commercial enterprises now set up and train field stations all over the world and produce 100's of boxes of net caught fish a week as the MAC types still struggle to produce a dozen boxes...if that.
Its 2007 now....and they have now had a full decade on the job.
This huge and glaring failure must share blame for the perpetuation of the crime of poisoning coral reefs to catch fishes that could have been netcaught all this time.

Steve
.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't know if you can dump it so much on the 'reform incs' laps, since they have, at the very least, helped make people in general more aware of the problems. Commercial cohorts didn't solve this thing in a year or two - they might have been able to, but they didn't.

I think, as you say at the beginning of your last post, that it is everyones fault and responsibility, hobby and industry alike. We all share the blame. The question continues to be 'what can we actually do about it', and I think it would be the third best thing in the world if we could get a practical answer. Rather than finger pointing at the past, I think we would all be served better if we looked at what could realistically be done from this point forward.

What can every level of the industry and hobby do about it?

 

[PeterIMA]

The following is part of an email I recently received from Ferdinand Cruz after he visited the village of Les in northern Island of Bali.

Peter Rubec

From Ferdinand Cruz:
Although the pumping of water into the system of the facility in LES that has shut down for two months was no problem. It is things happening here that really makes me almost feel that maybe it is hopeless to do what is right. Sometimes I feel it better to give up and forget the whole crusade. I am seeing again what happened in the Philippines unfolding here in a bigger and more terrible way. Indonesia has more collectors and more exporters than Philippines ten times over.


Everybody even the government in Bali is caught up and riding the band wagon of certifying the collectors and middlemen. GREAT IF IT IS A TRUE CERTIFICATION THAT BRING REAL CHANGE! GREAT IF IT STOPS THE USE OF CYANIDE! GREAT IF FISH ARE HANDLED PROPERLY! BUT IT IS NOT!!! NOW THEY WANT TO DO THE BEST PRACTICES IN CORALS??!!! THE BIGGEST GREENWASHING EVER IS HAPPENING HERE!!!!

It is like the spoke of a wheel that is centered in Bali trying to extend outwards. Although they stop short of certifying exporters and claim them to be 100% clean it would come soon and in the very near future. The ground for the "great SCAM" is being prepared. When before collectors using illegal methods had to be very careful now under the card of certification they can do almost anything. While before collectors had to be very careful now they are covered as if with immunity. The destruction before was huge that is why it takes the Balinese collectors more than 3 to 5 days to reach a good collecting site at big expense. Now they can destroy these sites under the banner of certification. Another two years and it will take 10 to 15 days of travel to good collecting sites if this is not stopped.


Here when a fisherman is certified they can fish wherever that want and would not be bothered. I recently witnessed what is happening here and it is pathetic. So much money to spend and spent yet nothing really right is coming out of it. It has only driven the use of cyanide in this trade deeper underground.



I started suspecting something was wrong when the fishes that were coming into the facility of LES from outside at the start were dying like flies. It also included fish I know are not caught by cyanide. Even the beautiful Banggai Cardinals were literally dropping one after another in front of my eyes. So I requested the head of the facility to drive me over to the area where these fishes are landed and process by middlemen. Arriving there I chose the fishes I wanted to bring back including 60 Banggai Cardinals and befriended the middleman. Winning his trust we talked about some species that are hard to catch by net. He admitted that his collectors can never catch some certain species with the use of nets and yet they bring them in I started probing him on his fishing trips. I was told it takes his boat an average of 20 days for one fishing trip. 5 days to go to the site and 5 days in sailing back. During the whole trip the fishes do not eat. He jokingly said that it was like the Muslims "Pu asa" or fasting. Mostly he sends his boat to Sulawesi to fish so that he does not lose on his investments or capital outlay for a trip. I asked him how he can guarantee the return of his operational capital and earn a decent profit from it. The amount he puts out for his boat and 18 collectors for one trip is usually $3, 800.00 and here that is a princely sum. He admitted that his collectors have to bring a "little" (note he emphasize a little) poison or cyanide. A kilo of cyanide in Rupiah is 60,000.00 or $ 6.70 a bit higher than the price in the Philippines but that is his insurance for the money he puts out on a collecting trip. I asked if he was certified and he said yes and all his 18 collectors which make it easier for his boat to go wherever they want to fish. It also gives him the space in avoiding being hassled in Bali. They were trained haphazardly in collecting and handling fish in a very impractical manner that even to follow and stick with this kind of training is according to him hard. In short the nets of his collectors are for "display only" and for easy to catch fish if they do not feel lazy in using it. Common sense will dictate that it is natural for a collector to squeeze a squeeze bottle than spread the net and chase the fish into it. Without out rightly saying it he finds the certification card a convenient vehicle and means to achieve what he wants under the noses of the authorities. Flag waving the certification card is an "in thing" here. So who is fooling who? It would be dumb if the certification body does not know what is going on. It must be deliberate in their part in turning their heads the other way with what is really happening as long as the numbers are there for them to claim as certified.

 

[Anonymous]

I thought LES was the poster village of how to do things right, and that they were disdaining any certification? What happened?

 

[clarionreef]

Rich,
I said;
This whole thing could have been solved in a year or two by commercial cohorts.
The talent exists inside the trade to do it but is not tapped by the ones whos history you want to keep silent about.
Therefore, the repetition of it will continue to cycle as it has for decades.

The legal system finger points at people all the time, including those who play games with, squander and embezzle the money of others and then falsify its liquidation.
Foreign aid fraud to starving people in Africa for example...we all find reprehensible.
The revelation of it...Is it not finger pointing?

The solutions are buried in our own history and the reluctance or shyness to face them dooms this trade to non resolution of its very serious problems.
We converted hundreds before...and now we cannot?

Honestly...do you not ever wonder why that is?

Its not the solutions we ever lacked...its people. Honest people, honest administrative leadership and the correct skill sets.

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Rich, they still are not getting certified. I'm not sure where you got that idea in Ruwis letter? He called it a "scam" and "greenwash".

 

[Piero]

wow, that's really disheartening Peter, but thanks for sharing the note.
_________________
Mediterranean Forum

 

[Anonymous]

Piero, Ruwi has been talking like this since I've known him. He's a true beliver in reform on multiple levels and areas. Ruwi is simply stretched to thin.

I've had several thousand dollars in donations lined up for them, but Ruwi never answerred any of my emails. Regardless to say, the money went elsewhere.

 

[PeterIMA]

Gresham, The message I posted was from Ferdinand Cruz not Ruwi. The collectors in Les have been resisting becoming MAC Certified. However, the message was not so much about the situation in Les but about the situation in Indonesia where cyanide is widely used.


As previously discussed the villagers in Les use nets to capture marine aquarium fishes. So, far I see no evidence that the net-trainings by the MAC have created additional net-collectors in Indonesia. At least, there is still almost no supply of MAC-Certified fish.

The collectors in Les do need our help. In particular, they need a market for their net-caught fish, farmed corals, and farmed artificial live rock.

Peter

 

[Anonymous]

Rich,
I said;
This whole thing could have been solved in a year or two by commercial cohorts.

But they didn't do it, but you don't seem to take them to task for not doing it.

The talent exists inside the trade to do it but is not tapped by the ones whos history you want to keep silent about.

I don't want you to keep silent, and I have never asked you to keep silent, and frankly, I am getting resentful that you continue to misrepresent our discussions on the matter.

What I do want you to stop pot shotting at the past instead of working to do something about the present, and, if there are present I would like options about what to do rather than just finger pointing.

 

[Anonymous]

Rich, they still are not getting certified. I'm not sure where you got that idea in Ruwis letter? He called it a "scam" and "greenwash".

The letter Peter posted confused me.

 

[clarionreef]

Let me try it this way;

Well meaning people keep calling for some missing recipe for reform as if it was some elusive, yet to be thought of magic formula.

We have the recipe...and have had it for a long time.

Its just that the cooks don't really know how to cook! They are the problem. The cooks!

This is precisely why the issue seems personal and /or political.
Thats because it is.

Steve

 

[clarionreef]

cortez marine wrote:
Rich,
I said;
This whole thing could have been solved in a year or two by commercial cohorts.


But they didn't do it, but you don't seem to take them to task for not doing it.

Are you kidding ?
I don't seem to have taken them to task for not doing it?
Where have you been from 1982-2007?

Taking them to task, writing exposes, whistle blowing, drawing most of the blood and telling the truth of the matter has been a rather lonely 20 year crusade and you say that?
Do you mean that finally, after all these years there is going to be more company in taking them to task?

"don't seem to take them to task ???"
... as your glaring error is made as a new comer to this thing I can forgive you. Perhaps newcomers will never understand it if they are allergic to history.

Thanks to Ferdies update we can see the history repeating itself and the cycle of reform-whitewash continuing.
Failure to learn from history allows it to cycle endlessly.
The damage is great...it is continuing... and there are not enough people like Ferdie helping us to take them to task.
Steve






Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Steve.
In the last few years the bulk of your posts has been about how NPO have messed up. Perhaps in the past you took private interests to task, but I haven't seen it lately. I could easily be missing it.

People keep asking, so I'll try again
We need the whole recipe- the part that tells us how to influence the cooks? How do we change the cooks? Where do we send money to help? What do we do to show support?

PS
I think your pot shots/status moves/insults at the end of your post are unnecessary and violate the UAA, and if they were written to someone else I would edit your post.

 

[clarionreef]

People keep asking, so I'll try again
We need the whole recipe- the part that tells us how to influence the cooks?
How do we change the cooks?

Where do we send money to help? What do we do to show support?


The GEF/MAMTI/PACKARD/WWF/MAC matrix is so not interested in listening to your concerns.[ or mine]
Its their ball...their tax shelter...their gravy train and they're sticking to it.
They will not and cannot be reformed in time and only new groups and players w/ genuine commercial know-how can win the day.

The needed group does not today exist.
Any funder can create one and if the core of the group is put together intelligently, there could be some real progress.
Hoping for consumers and dealers to become concerned and enlightened in market changing numbers is not a good strategy. It has been the core of the MAC failure.
The Les village in Bali cannot even sell netcaught fish because the cyanide trade is cheaper.
Netcaught fish are not a draw...not a plus and not an enhancement except in the eyes of a few.
People...support netcaught fish in words and buy cyanide caught fish in reality all day..every day.
Its just how aquarium people are I guess.
The reform must happen over there for their reasons. Not ours.
Anyone w/ a half a million can win the day and take credit and go to heaven.
Send me a pm how.
Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve has explained the situation in Bali. The MAMTI program has failed in both the Philippines and in Indonesia. One might ask whether they ever intended to do it right, or whether their trainers are incompetent? I don't see that firing most of the PI field staff has helped improve anything.

There are genuine net-collectors trained by Hariibon, the IMA, Ferdinand and Steve. Many continue to use nets, but are not MAC-Certified. It is not clear how the underwater surveys by ReefCheck tie in with the MAC Certification program. At this point, I am not holding my breath expecting to see improvements by MAMTI staff associated with the MAC, ReefCheck, and/or CCIF. I am told they do not even get along with themselves.

There are several small groups of true reformists associated with the East Asian Seas and Terrestrial Initiatives (EASTI) in the Philippines and with Telapak in Indonesia. They merit our support. If you wish to send them donations, send me a PM. If you are too jaded to respond or see this as some kind of ploy I understand. The NA trade (importers and retail stores) has never done much to help. However, I have clients who are willing to pay a little more and they are getting net-caught PI and Indo fishes. It is possible for others to order fish as well.

I agree with Steve that we cannot expect much help from funding agencies. Ferdinand has a grant that is supporting the mariculture program in PI. We can expect the cultured fish to become available in the coming year. We also need to support integrated programs that work with the communities, the collectors, and local governments to ensure sustainable collection with nets, underwater surveys, the creation of Coastal Resource Management Plans (CRMP) and other aspects of the CBUGS program. Funding is still needed for this from doners.

In the mean time, the trade should support EASTI and Telapak. These are the genuine reform groups who are working closely with the collectors (such as the villagers in Les) to make their lives a little better while trying to ensure the long-term sustainability of the trade. Even if it costs a little more, we need to support their efforts when making decisions on whether to order net-caught or to buy from other PI or Indo suppliers (many listed previously) that export cyanide-caught MAF.

Peter Rubec