Going barebottom, tips/tricks/advice (clothes not mandatory, ;) )

[ShaunW]

Shaun,
I'm saddend . But its cool, you've gone to the dark side along with Tom . Am I gonna be the only sand bed left in BK?? Shaun if you need any help not this weekend but the following one, I'd come over bright and early to help ya out for the day with the move. Moves alot quicker with more hands .
-Kris

Kris, I tried to resist as long as possible, but remember my tank is much older than yours (8 years). It is long over due for a overhaul, and needs to be re designed with the more modern thinking. Intellectually I am a big BB fan, I totally believe that it is the best way to keep a main display tank for SPS. DSB just don't work over time.

Now is the best time, since my tanks suffered alot of losses and my SPS are now quite small. Once things get bigger and grow more it will be alot tougher to do such a change. The only reason I don't have BB now is that I was lazy and didn't want to rock the boat on my tank, but since the magdrive rocked the boat for me, I figure why not now before I get in the same situation.

Additionally seeing Jonathan's and Rich's tanks, I am sold. Their SPS growth and colors are fantastic.

Thanks for you offer to help, but I am going to have a hard time waiting. I am really impatient with my tank and when I want to do something I have a hard time not jumping right into it.

 

[nanoreefer22]

LoL. Understood. Good luck with the change. My offer stands in case things don't go over well this weekend .

 

[ctxmonitor]

What do you think?
New Thread title: Going barebottom, tips/tricks/advice (clothes not mandatory, )

I have no objection to that.. That be great actually. Our own little how to go barebottom ..

 

[ShaunW]

Tom, I changed the name and moved it, .

 

[DRZL]

I think you should cook your rock, IMO its the best way to do it, What your exporting arent things you SEE per se (how much of our tanks dynamics are?), but p04 bound up and accumulated within them that only bacterial turgor can take out, its not a dunk and shake (manual) process, but rather its a bacterial process of consumption and release(seen as sediment on your BB). Cooking deprives photosynthesis and nutrification of any waste via absence of a bio load, thru water changes and heavy skimming, think of it as killing an inner evil by starving it.

In the end its your choice, but after I saw what came out of my rocks w/ 2-3mths cooking, id be hella hardpressed to let that crap slowly, rather than rapidly, be flushed out of my rocks. Remember BB is a "method" not a choice of substrate. One in which cooking is a key factor. Keep in mind you can fail w/ BB if not done right.

 

[ShaunW]

See what you are really doing by cooking rocks is killing off different species of algae that one has accumulated over the course of time. Your right, bacteria will take over and start to consume phosphate, since they are eager to pick up where the algae left off and they are also consuming the algae breakdown. The thing is, once you put that rock back into an aquarium environment the algae can come back if you introduce it again. It is the cleanliness of the BB tank that prevents it from gaining a foot hold along with algae consuming cleanup crews and grazers.

I have coraline algae all over my rocks which prevents some algae from gaining a foothold, in addition, most of my rocks are not porous "live" rock, so they have nothing to shed.

 

[ShaunW]

I am however, cooking some porous rock that was in my 30 gallon right now and may do it on some of the porous rock in my 120 also.

 

[jhale]

I was going to use the wet/dry to suck out the sand. I was also going to have alot of make up water available. I have a 45 gallon tub to hold rock and extra water, plus 2 20 gallon cans, and 2 30 gallon tanks. It should be enough. I want to remove the sand as fast as possible, since I want to try and not kill of all the coraline/mushrooms and GSP on the walls of my tank.

My plan is to remove all rock to the 45 gallon storage tank, and possibly the 30 gallon tanks, remove most of the water (2/3 of the water volume), then use the shop vac to pull all the sand out. What do you think.

well I have plenty of shop vacs, I've never used them for a wet aplication though. I would doa test with your to see how much water vs sand it will pick up.

I forgot about all the life on your tank walls. I would think your going to need to make a whole lot of make-up water to keep the tank full. I would not let the water level drop at all. unless you want to do some pruning.

 

[DRZL]

See what you are really doing by cooking rocks is killing off different species of algae that one has accumulated over the course of time.

Im going to have to disagree here, that is 100% not the purpose of cooking rock, that may be a correlative end product of po4 starvation and denutrification, but thats not the real Mccoy. If that was true then tell me wouldnt everytime you trade or acquire a new coral, consequently you have forms of common algae? wouldnt it be self defeating then? its the fact that your keeping a low nutrient system that isnt conducive to their growth thats the purpose and reason of cooking.

Your right, bacteria will take over and start to consume phosphate, since they are eager to pick up where the algae left off and they are also consuming the algae breakdown. The thing is, once you put that rock back into an aquarium environment the algae can come back if you introduce it again. It is the cleanliness of the BB tank that prevents it from gaining a foot hold along with algae consuming cleanup crews and grazers.

Again algae is not the reason but a product of the reason, Its "cleanliness" is afforded through its oligathic (sp.?)conditions produced by the discarding of bound up p04 "cleaning" it of components on which undesirable algae are rooted in growth and existence, along w/ photosynthesis which thru cooking(dark) leave it w/ neither until the point of maximum die-off.

I have coraline algae all over my rocks which prevents some algae from gaining a foothold, in addition, most of my rocks are not porous "live" rock, so they have nothing to shed.

This is a common misconception, your rock contains phosphate thru the death of organic animals which make up its skeleton, not exclusive to stony corals (which also assimilate po4), also it might not seem porous to YOU but to Microorganisms its swiss cheese. Both these need to be as low as possible and since the latter is the one you can really only work on, its the one you should address the most.

 

[jackson6745]

Andres, then why use live rock?
Seems we would be better off using tuffa, concrete, or some other dry "dead" rock.

 

[jhale]

I have to give my experience of not cooking my rock.
I had rock that could have been the poster boy for rock cooking.
about 100 pounds of live rock which sat in a 55 set up and toped off with
the best water New York City had to offer. Over the years I had several algae outbreaks, not doubt also due to the 2" of crushed gravel.

when changing from the 55 to the 120 I had the rock in tubs for a week, during that time they shed about 3/4" of crud. I put them in the 120 without further cooking.
They shed like crazy for about 5 months. They have since stopped shedding and the po4 levels are under control in my tank.

my point is once you remove the source of po4 and other garbage the sandbed (and tap water in my case) contains then the rock will over time take care of itself. while it was shedding the garbage I did a whole bunch of siphoning and water changes.

 

[DRZL]

Andres, then why use live rock?
Seems we would be better off using tuffa, concrete, or some other dry "dead" rock.

Life.
We do need the aerobic and anaerobic bacteria to complete the mini-ecosystem. It feeds corals, transforms certain chemicals into more absorbable ones, and keeps us interested.

Taking live rock and "cooking" it doesnt devoid it of life, contrary to what you may have heard, all it does is it gives micro bacteria an equal playing ground against more developed macro bacteria(algae)which have the added benefit of photosynthezing(this example for those "cooking" to get rid of algae, the most common complaint)
Basically your stacking the odds in your favor against "undesirables" and as these micro-bacteria consume the die off from the problem algaes, and after these are consumed, consume themselves as they die of starvation (releasing p04) get it? They are all organic(all live things contain p04)


The dust on the bottom of a BB for the most part are dead micro bacteria, not sand which are no longer necessary (added benefit is they no longer use alk, and other trace elements) because of the lack of nutrients. Almost like a beehive downsizing its members as they hit "Great depression", in our case meaning lower nutrients.

You can have this happen in your tank, take 10 times longer, feed algae blooms, and have the p04 fall right into your main display, it'll still cook, but you get to see it. :knockedou

 

[ctxmonitor]

Nice info guys. So you have to cook your rock for a month before you put it back in? I feel like taking a chance if the rock is not cooked, so I think I am going to cook most of the rock and the one that have corals on them, I'm just going to put them back in.. This upgrade isn't going to to see light for quite some more time.

 

[Dace]

how much was it. how much was shipping. How much would i need for a 180 gallon is that 24x24x72 i have two overflos how can i get them to cut out for me.

 

[ShaunW]

I hope that we can have a good discussion here. Everytime I get into this on RC it turns out bad. I would hate to have that happen here on MR. I also would like to learn, , and discuss these really interesting things about reefkeeping.

Life.
We do need the aerobic and anaerobic bacteria to complete the mini-ecosystem. It feeds corals, transforms certain chemicals into more absorbable ones, and keeps us interested.

Actually by removing the sand bed you are removing the aneraobic bacteria.

They are the eventual reason that DSB crash, since they and the aerobic bacteria in the upper layer of the sand bed are competing for nutrients. It is the encroachment of the anaerobes into the oxygenated space that caused phospate and nitrate spikes. BB tanks would have minimal anaerobic bacteria as compared to a DSB tank.

Taking live rock and "cooking" it doesnt devoid it of life, contrary to what you may have heard, all it does is it gives micro bacteria an equal playing ground against more developed macro bacteria(algae)which have the added benefit of photosynthezing(this example for those "cooking" to get rid of algae, the most common complaint)

But it does devoid the rock of all photosynthetic requiring forms of life. Bacteria always win against algae, their growth rate is much faster, there are 1000's of different species of bacteria present all with the ability to metabolize different compounds for growth. Algae in reality have no chance against bacteria, it's really all a matter of size. If algae grew like bacteria there would be no rock that would be visible after 24 hours growth. The one bubble algae while unsightly, is still just one cell, the equilivant amount of space, if filled with bacteria would be trillions of cells. There is no such thing as macrobacteria.

Basically your stacking the odds in your favor against "undesirables" and as these micro-bacteria consume the die off from the problem algaes, and after these are consumed, consume themselves as they die of starvation (releasing p04) get it? They are all organic(all live things contain p04)

I still believe that cooking rock is robbing the algae of their photosynthetic ability and causing them to die. Bacteria respond and multiply quickly, once you put this rock back in the tank they will use nutrients available (from feeding fish, etc) and repopulate the rock within a couple of days (after they are done eating themselves during the cooking process). It is the lack of dendritis and cleanliness of a BB tank that keeps algae in check. Cooking does remove dentritis from the rock, but it also partially sterilizes it, you are killing off alot of the life (not just algae).

The dust on the bottom of a BB for the most part are dead micro bacteria, not sand which are no longer necessary (added benefit is they no longer use alk, and other trace elements) because of the lack of nutrients. Almost like a beehive downsizing its members as they hit "Great depression", in our case meaning lower nutrients.

You can have this happen in your tank, take 10 times longer, feed algae blooms, and have the p04 fall right into your main display, it'll still cook, but you get to see it. :knockedou

But I have no real algae, or nutrient problem to begin with, that is not the reason I am going BB. Why would I have a algae problem removing the sand bed, if I don't have one before removing the sand bed.

BB tanks have problems with algae, even ones that cook their rock. This comes from introduction of algae that are fully able to generate all the energy through photosythesis. An oligotropic environment matters not to them. It is the work of cleanup crews and grazers (tangs) that prevent further algae growth.

Rock shedding is also the work of burrowing worms and the macro flauna in the rock.

 

[ShaunW]

This is a common misconception, your rock contains phosphate thru the death of organic animals which make up its skeleton, not exclusive to stony corals (which also assimilate po4), also it might not seem porous to YOU but to Microorganisms its swiss cheese. Both these need to be as low as possible and since the latter is the one you can really only work on, its the one you should address the most.

Cooking rock also causes alot of die off, so you are increasing the amount of phosphate not decreasing it initially. It is not until it is all skimmed out as dentritis and removed through water changes that everything starts to get better. That is when they say the rock is sucessfully "cooked".

But in some ways it may be easier to just bake the rock in the sun (really cook it), kill everything and put it back in the tank with a few starter rocks. Would take less time and with the same effect as cooking.

 

[jhale]

I thought that even if you let all the life on live rock die in the sun, you will still have to cook it. won't all that po4 will still be present in the rocks. won't it just come out when placed back in a tank?

 

[DRZL]

I hope that we can have a good discussion here. Everytime I get into this on RC it turns out bad. I would hate to have that happen here on MR. I also would like to learn, , and discuss these really interesting things about reefkeeping.

same here

Actually by removing the sand bed you are removing the aneraobic bacteria.

OK, were talking about rock though, not all anaerobic bacteria in your aquarium is found in bottom sediment, its also found deep in your rock.

They are the eventual reason that DSB crash, since they and the aerobic bacteria in the upper layer of the sand bed are competing for nutrients. It is the encroachment of the anaerobes into the oxygenated space that caused phospate and nitrate spikes. BB tanks would have minimal anaerobic bacteria as compared to a DSB tank.

like a proverbial fuse at the end of a stick of TNT, I agree, but, again sandbed processes arent my main point, however you are right in that you say there will be minimal,( I say more efficient) anaerobic bacteria that is in your rocks rather than a nutrient sink as a sandbed is, the process of cooking is just that! You are getting rid of the crap box (Bare bottom), and cooking to rid the extraneuos anaerobic no longer needed (component of BB method), in a much more nutrient deprived system(you say sterile). They die simply because of lack of nutrients, and as they die, being that they are living organic matter, they release p04 that would be otherwise trapped in your rock. its all tied together.

But it does devoid the rock of all photosynthetic requiring forms of life. Bacteria always win against algae, their growth rate is much faster, there are 1000's of different species of bacteria present all with the ability to metabolize different compounds for growth. Algae in reality have no chance against bacteria, it's really all a matter of size. If algae grew like bacteria there would be no rock that would be visible after 24 hours growth. The one bubble algae while unsightly, is still just one cell, the equilivant amount of space, if filled with bacteria would be trillions of cells. There is no such thing as macrobacteria.

If this was 100% true then why don't the anaerobic bacteria always win? I mean theres obviously wastes and nutrients in the water for them to convert, how come crashes are a result?

I still believe that cooking rock is robbing the algae of their photosynthetic ability and causing them to die. Bacteria respond and multiply quickly, once you put this rock back in the tank they will use nutrients available (from feeding fish, etc) and repopulate the rock within a couple of days (after they are done eating themselves during the cooking process). It is the lack of dendritis and cleanliness of a BB tank that keeps algae in check. Cooking does remove dentritis from the rock, but it also partially sterilizes it, you are killing off alot of the life (not just algae).

Sterile- Free from live bacteria or other microorganisms. (Dictionary.com)

IN NO WAY IS BB = STERILITY.
The bacteria never left, and there is hardly nonexistence of microorganisms.
Much in the same way you dont go to someones tank who does not have algae problems, and say they have sterility problems. Problem nutrients are not a claim to great bio-diversity. This is the most frustrating concept in explaining BB method.
The main reason people cook rock is to reduce p04, nutrients, algae though a common complaint is a secondary result, dont confuse the two.

But I have no real algae, or nutrient problem to begin with, that is not the reason I am going BB. Why would I have a algae problem removing the sand bed, if I don't have one before removing the sand bed.

Refer back to fuse and TNT. even you said it previously that your getting weary of your 8 yr old DSB

BB tanks have problems with algae, even ones that cook their rock. This comes from introduction of algae that are fully able to generate all the energy through photosythesis. An oligotropic environment matters not to them. It is the work of cleanup crews and grazers (tangs) that prevent further algae growth.

Algae growth can be attributed to many reasons (reason they are so succesful in nature, and as we find out in our tanks) but nutrients AND light, and youll have uncontrollable blooms,
Just light, no nutrients, and you'll fare far far better. cleanup crews are an essential part of the BB method but there are many steps prior to help control algae.

Rock shedding is also the work of burrowing worms and the macro flauna in the rock.

Also yes, but mostly its bacterial turgor as the die-off and consumption of anaerobic's that exist inside our rocks.

 

[DRZL]

But in some ways it may be easier to just bake the rock in the sun (really cook it), kill everything and put it back in the tank with a few starter rocks. Would take less time and with the same effect as cooking.

That is 100% wrong

Taking loads of live bacteria and letting them die not only causes more p04 (death of all that bacteria, especially the ones inside you cant get at) it increase the chance that you'll have amazing stores of p04 bound up in the rock that will now no longer be easy to get out.( no cooking process of consumption) That is an exteremely simple way of looking at it, you just dont go nuke a hurricane and its over.

 

[DRZL]

I thought that even if you let all the life on live rock die in the sun, you will still have to cook it. won't all that po4 will still be present in the rocks. won't it just come out when placed back in a tank?

Bingo!
posted it right when I did
You will ultimately have to cook the rock again, this time w/ much less help from our desirable bacteria friends, the process would become cooking/repopulating rock, doubly lengthy