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MaryHM

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Here's a challenge. Name me five prominent hobby/industry people who are known to be advocates for reform that wholeheartedly support MAC. (Those riding the MAC gravy train to support sales of their products don't count!) To make it fair, I'll name some people who meet that criteria but don't support MAC. Me, Steve Robinson, Ferdinand Cruz, Eric Borneman, Bob Fenner, Morgan Lidster.

No answer to my challenge yet?? I'm shocked! I'll remain patient while you all continue to think about it. 8O
 

clarionreef

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Mary,
Add John Tullock to the list of seriously constructive critics of the entire 'MAC-wards' approach.
Mac has no greater critics then those who most understand the subject matter and those who deal in it...for a living.
The greatest reservoir of support comes from peripheral marinelife figures, especially service guys, sticker seekers and supporters for personal reasons, ie. "Its good for me to be seen as a supporter types".
My but what a difference there would've been if the divers claimed to be trained ["albiet netlessly"] were actually trained. If that were true as it was guaranteed to MAC to be, this would have all turned out differently.
They cannot say it publicly, but it burns them how much they were lied to. On this, I do feel for them.
Steve
 

JennM

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cortez marine":2lqa7ia6 said:
the entire 'MAC-wards' approach.


HAHAHAHAHAAH MAC-wards....

I spit my tea all over the monitor when I read that one! :lol:

Really, Steve, you need to issue a spew alert on that one!

Jenn
 
A

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Rover":1b2paj5v said:
I spit my tea all over the monitor when I read that one!

Try using sugar. It won't taste as bad. :wink:

'just a spoonfull of sugar makes the medicine, go down...
medicine, go down...
the medicine, go down

just a spoonfull of sugar makes the medicine, go down...
in the most delightful way...'

a song from a childhood record

mebbe medicine is to cyanide what sugar is to mac?
 

MaryHM

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Here's a challenge. Name me five prominent hobby/industry people who are known to be advocates for reform that wholeheartedly support MAC. (Those riding the MAC gravy train to support sales of their products don't count!) To make it fair, I'll name some people who meet that criteria but don't support MAC. Me, Steve Robinson, Ferdinand Cruz, Eric Borneman, Bob Fenner, Morgan Lidster.

Ok, MAC supporters. I guess my original challenge of finding five whole industry reformists that support MAC was too difficult. Tell ya what. I'll change the challenge- find me THREE reformists that support MAC. Just three. If the organization is so competent there would have to be at least 3 reformists that support it, wouldn't there?
 
A

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Mary,

Does all of this taunting serve a constructive purpose?

-Lee
 
A

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Ultimately, yes, I think it certainly does. Especially when we consider how many folks have chimed in here touting/supporting an organization, and decrying those who are vocal with their knowledge, but haven't got an idea of the history of how it got to be the way it is.
 

jamesw

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Hi Mary,

Here is a list of Industry Reformists that supports MAC. There are many more than 5 people on this list - and all of them are "major players." This info is taken from one of your own posts btw.

Board of Directors of the Packard Foundation - voted to fund MAC for $530,000 in 2001

Board of Directors of the MacArthur Foundation - voted to fund MAC for $350,000 in 2001

Board of Directors of the Canada-South Pacific Ocean Development Program - Dunno how much they funded MAC for 2001

Board of Directors of the World Wildlife Fund - Dunno how much they funded MAC for 2001

BOD of MASNA - Supported MAC with funding from their extremely tight budget. Dunno how much they funded MAC for 2001.


FWIW, as a hobbyist (not as a reefs.org operator) I support MAC. I have spent much of my free time to help them out (you don't wanna know my billing rate) w/ "advice" where possible.

Cheers
James Wiseman
 
A

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jamesw":1shrf375 said:
Hi Mary,

Here is a list of Industry Reformists that supports MAC. There are many more than 5 people on this list - and all of them are "major players." This info is taken from one of your own posts btw.

Board of Directors of the Packard Foundation - voted to fund MAC for $530,000 in 2001

Board of Directors of the MacArthur Foundation - voted to fund MAC for $350,000 in 2001

Board of Directors of the Canada-South Pacific Ocean Development Program - Dunno how much they funded MAC for 2001

Board of Directors of the World Wildlife Fund - Dunno how much they funded MAC for 2001

BOD of MASNA - Supported MAC with funding from their extremely tight budget. Dunno how much they funded MAC for 2001.


FWIW, as a hobbyist (not as a reefs.org operator) I support MAC. I have spent much of my free time to help them out (you don't wanna know my billing rate) w/ "advice" where possible.

Cheers
James Wiseman

James, she asked for industry people that are not linked to MAC financially. If you notice most of those organizations have a board member on MAC's BOD.
 

MaryHM

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Lee,

Yes, it does serve a purpose. The purpose is to make people think. Why do you think none of the MAC supporters can name any prominent industry/hobby people that are both reformists and pro-MAC?? Why are most of the people who are prominent reformists against MAC?? I mean, c'mon. MAC issued a freaking press release to tell the world a 9 year old who knows diddly-squat about the industry and the issues is now a spokesperson. That's all they need- one more person who doesn't have a clue. I don't get my entertainment by posting anti-MAC rhetoric here. There is a sound foundation to my concerns (and other people's as well). It's just that not everyone is as vocal about it as I am. I want people to understand that there are many prominent people who have serious concerns about MAC- it's not just us handful of loonies here in the industry forum. :P

Chris,
Thank you for pointing out the obvious to James. Anyone can name a bunch of people/organizations that support MAC. But the key is are they industry/hobby people who are also reformists.
 

devils advocate

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With all due respect Mary, but aren't most spokespeople just puppets of the company/organization/movement (for the most part). Great many are just clueless as to what they are fronting. Look at all the commercials on TV. MAC is no different in having a high profile person getting out their message.
 

jamesw

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Whoops, it's not MASNA that gave MAC money, it was another hobby/industry group - can't remember who right now. Maybe they'll stand up and be counted.

Cheers
James
 

jamesw

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Would you (the proverbial "you" not anyone in particular) be impressed if I said that PIJAC supported MAC? What about some other lobbying group? Of course not.

Because why would a LOBBYING organization or a business support an NGO that they FEARED would cut into their bottom line, eh?

I think that's why you issued the challenge - of course no one will come forward - a vocal minority here in the Industry Forum has scared most everyone in the business into thinking that MAC is after their pocketbook. They are not.

That one makes me laugh every time though - but I've got to congratulate y'all - if you can make folks think that a non-profit is after their money you are one heck of a spin doctor!

The fact that WWF supports MAC is worth about 100 times more in my book than some wholesaler or importer or wild-haired phd researcher.

Cheers
James
 

MaryHM

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There are tons of organizations that support MAC. I won't even get into the gory details about how AMDA "sold" their support- which was the impetus for me resigning from both AMDA and MAC. I don't give a flip what dippity-do organization tacks it's name on the MAC bandwagon, because I've seen firsthand how that whole operation works. I'm interested in people. People who know how the industry works, know the problems, know the inner workings. Some yahoo sitting behind a desk at the WWF doesn't have a clue about all of the idiosyncracies involved in this industry. Heck, even the desk jockeys at MAC have finally admitted the problem was way more complicated than they orginally thought (duh). Find me someone who is in the know who supports MAC. Tell ya what, I'll reduce my challenge to one lone person. Any takers?
 

MaryHM

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FYI, James...

PIJAC (who you implied would never support an NGO who would impact the "bottom line") is highly involved in MAC. In fact, the president of PIJAC, Marshall Meyers, was MAC president for a few years.

I think the least of anyone's concerns here is that MAC is after their pocketbook. In fact, the cost of certification and the fact that the industry will be paying to support MAC at some point is at the bottom of my concerns list. I'm much more concerned about haphazard certification, the cart before the horse mentality, and the fact that they don't seem to address problems.
 

JennM

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Julian Sprung was extolling the virtues of MAC in the spring here in ATL when he was here to attend the APPMA show. Another local store sponsored a lecture/book signing, and at the lecture he discussed two topics, MAC certification and nano-reefs. He put in a lot of good words for his products too *g*.

The lecture was attended by about 80 people, another shop operator was there, as well were Dr. Bruce Carlson and Ray Davis of the Georgia Aquarium Project.

Only one question was posed in the Q&A about MAC, I was ready to ask some tough questions but the interest wasn't there, and being the guest of another shop owner I didn't think it was the time or place to be ummmm confrontational *g*, so I didn't ask any MAC related questions. The one question that was posed was by the other shop operator who asked if there was a MAC presence in Haiti, because he had some concerns about Haiti. Julian replied no to the question and the remainder of the Q&A was about nano-reefs. At the time I thought there must be huge indifference toward MAC... I don't know if that is an accurate assessment or not.

I wanted to discuss the matter further with Julian, I went to his booth twice at the APPMA show, but he was not there on both occasions.

But - to rise to Mary's challenge.... Julian Sprung is the one I can name :D

Jenn
 

dizzy

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jamesw":vb2yksd4 said:
The fact that WWF supports MAC is worth about 100 times more in my book than some wholesaler or importer or wild-haired phd researcher.Cheers
James

James of course WWF supports the MAC they helped to start it. While it's true that Rick Horn of Petsmart gave birth to the idea of certified fish, WWF is the organization responsible for bringing it to fruition. The official origins can be researched in the thread titled "Some TAG,AMDA, MAC history. Lee provides the correct link and I believe it was in the Winter 97 issue of the MASNA newsletter.
 

MaryHM

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Jenn, Jenn, Jenn...

Here's the original challenge:
Name me five prominent hobby/industry people who are known to be advocates for reform that wholeheartedly support MAC. (Those riding the MAC gravy train to support sales of their products don't count!)

And then you have the audacity to name someone who, in your own words:

He put in a lot of good words for his products too

That does it! I am now slapping you across the cheek with my ex-employee's stinky latex packing gloves (he was too much of a wuss to handle them barehanded ;) ) Anyone else dare to take the challenge?? :lol:
 

JennM

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Yeah well a half-baked answer is better than none, right? :D (What's good for the goose and all that)

Gloves are for wimps :D

I read your challenge when you posted it - and I knew then that Julian was disqualified because of the commercial aspect - although I really don't see what one had to do with the other - he's not selling "certified" products, or only for "certified" fishes.. However he appeared in an uncertified store for a book - signing (selling).... when the MAC subject came up I whispered to Scott to fasten his seat belt... but as I said, I was the guest of another shop owner, and didn't feel that it was a good time or place to take him to task.

He did listen quite attentively whilst signing books and posters, to the conversation I had with the hosting store's owner about the FAA freight issues as they pertained to the shipment of live fish and corals - my husband noticed that, although he did not care to take up the subject with me at any time that night. The other owner and I had a really good conversation... both that evening, and the next day when we chanced to meet at the APPMA show.

Jenn
 

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