Letter to Paul Holthus

[dr_micah]

Welcome to reefs.org and the Industry Forum dr_micah.

When you get that superhero collectors outfit are you going to have an "S" or an "N" stitched on the chest?

Now why would a fight against MAC be a 'good fight'?


I'm thinking of getting an "M" .....for Mary. I may even ask her out on a date! To answer your last question, MAC is downright dishonest. it seems little concern to them if LFS certify fish that don't qualify. as well as everything else Mary is saying!!! yaay Mary!

 

[dr_micah]

MAC is the evil that little children speak of under their sheets at night....the dread that wisps up those hairs on the back of your neck. the bolts that bind the post that Mary beats her head against, be afraid, very afraid.

 

[Anonymous]

John wrote: What concerns me is how silly you make this forum look with a name game contest.


No, no, no John, whats making this forum look silly is all those threads of yours that really have nothing to do with the industy behind the hobby :wink: . RDO needs to create another forum for you, so you can post all those articles over there. Really seems like when things heat up here, you start posting zero response threads to push the relevent threads down and eventually off the 1st page. We're onto John, we'll just keep bumping up the real threads, and not respond to you articles. Catch and release commercial fishing, nice article John.

 

[mkirda]

No, no, no John, whats making this forum look silly is all those threads of yours that really have nothing to do with the industy behind the hobby :wink: .

It's all in John's sense of humor, Gresham.
In many ways, he is a pretty funny guy.

I also have it on pretty good authority that John's 'disappearances' have a good reason behind them. :wink: (At least, I'd consider them acceptable...)

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[JennM]

So if Elwyn Segrest is such a huge fan of MAC, why is his wholesale facility not certified?

It's on the "committment list", but so are many others, who may or may not support MAC anymore - Mary you're on there too still . So the committment list can't be deemed as accurate or current, so I'll patiently await the answer to the question about Elwyn....

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

His "humor" is bumping good, relevant threads off the discussion plate and replacing them with PI kids going to school and bogus articles on catch and release commercial fishing. Theres plenty of places on the net for Johns "humor", this forum doesn't seem like the opperiate place for bogus and non relavent threads. The other forums get non relavent threads "moved" all the time, that should be the case here. John truly needs another forum to moderate, along with this one.

 

[dr_micah]

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/WWMAdminSubW ... zofbiz.htm

i offer this link to find steve r's letter which i find disturbing and eye-opening. 8O

 

[MaryHM]

Ah, reading those letters sure does bring back the memories....let me go grab a tissue...

There. Now. Just for the general readership's information, those MAC letters are about 2 years old. Unfortunately though, not much has changed.

 

[Caterham]

I love your comments Gresham! I couldn't have said it any better myself 8)

 

[liquid]

FYI, moving of threads are at the moderators and administrators discression. In general, threads are moved so that they fit into the proper forum where they will get the most attention and response based on their content. In reviewing various threads, they seem to relate to the Industry in one way or another -- from how Finding Nemo might have an effect on this hobby to how the collectors live and what goes on in their daily lives. The content is pertinent.

If you do have questions, comments or suggestions such as this, they would fit much better in our Questions, Comments and Suggestions forum ( http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=2 ) as they get lost very easily in large threads such as this.

Also, I'd like to reiterate what Len posted a couple days ago -- that the "progression of industry issues is better accomplished with less negativity towards individuals or groups but rather more positive, constructive contributions. One common problem we encounter with excessive negativity is the alienation of people who wish to join in our dicussions but are too intimidated to. And I hope we all agree that the less participants in our dicussions, the less enriching this forum is." This isn't aimed at anybody specific but is just a general reminder about the proper conduct and decorum that we wish to see from this and every forum on our website.

Please feel free to either PM myself or post in our Feedback forum if you have any questions.

Best regards,

Shane
Admin

 

[Anonymous]

Dr. Micah,

I don't see much in the wetwebmedia link you provided that hasn't been hashed, rehashed and rerehashed about MAC. Just shows me how much intractable hate and fear there is against MAC in some people's minds.

In fact there are some serious, unsubstantiated accusations made against at least one of our friends that frequently posts here. The link is hurtful and not helpful, IMO. Of course it will serve to amuse and fuel the anti-MAC-backers and maybe ruin a few reputations.

I agree with liquid. We need far less negativity towards individuals and groups and more positive, constructive contributions.

Dr. Micah if you want to go overseas and do some reef saving, great. Why go and start another bashing session?

-Lee

 

[dr_micah]

because appeasement only makes the aggressor more aggressive

 

[Anonymous]

Lee, I'd like to point out, also, that it's obvious there are folks who want to participate, want to know what's been going on, but aren't "hip to the sitch". Just because you're in the know doesn't extrapolate to others being so. The issues brought up are still pertinent (regardless of how much they've been gone over) because they are still an issue.

I get the strong feeling that you'd like everyone to simply accept the party line and the status quo. It ain't gonna happen, my friend.

For the benefit of the end consumer who wants to do the right thing some sort of certification is necessary. However, the organization that is supposed to be overseeing this absolutely must demonstrate the HIGHEST integrity, wouldn't you agree? In my opinion this is the crux of the issue.

 

[Len]

I can't speak for Lee, but I'm personally not interested in upholding any status quo; To tell you the truth, I don't even know what the issues are. I am, however, interested in people contributing more positive, useful input into discussions instead of the predictable, incessant, rehashed negativity that doesn't seem to have advanced us anywhere.

One can complain and complain that big oil is the biggest enemy to the environment, but the person that finds an alternative fuel source is the true champion of reform.

My two cents

 

[MaryHM]

Let's see, Len. When I've raised questions to MAC in a positive way what happened?? It starts with an I...IGNORED. (And don't say it's because of who I am, because others have posed the same questions and got as far as I did...no where.) Of course, I will still continue to address issues to them directly when necessary, but I think a lot of people get turned off by this. When you ask them a question and are ignored, exactly what type of positive message is MAC sending us?? You want us to be "positive, constructive, etc...". When we try we are ignored. Therein lies the problem.

 

[Len]

Mary,

Believe it or not, my posts don't always have to do with you.

I don't mind you questioning MAC about their affairs. I can sympathize with you when your legitimate questions are unanswered. But to be honest, I can also see why MAC wouldn't want to answer them in such a hostile forum .... a forum where many are intimidated to participate simply because of the negativity. That's why I am encouraging everyone to be bring more positive, insightful contributions to our dicussions, and refrain from malacious and/or unconstructive comments at all times. Let's please remember we're all here for the same common goal. When you alienate others from wanting to participate here, you narrow your own horizon and limit your own audience.

 

[MaryHM]

I never said you were directing it at me, I was just giving you an example based on my experience to answer your call to positivity. I don't see people not participating. In fact, I see more people participating than ever before. So I'm not so sure people are intimidated and afraid to post. I think all we ask in here is for some honesty, and the ability to back up your claims. If you can't do that and you post some pie-in-the-sky, put on a happy face, can't we all just get along post, you're asking for some opposition. I think many of us expect people with an opinion on these issues to have a reason why they hold that opinion. And yes, people may get asked the tough questions. And if they can't answer them, well I wonder about their convictions. But frankly, I'd be more afraid to post "I'm putting a yellow tang in my 30 gallon" in the main forum than to address any issue here.

 

[dizzy]

Seamaiden it all began when Mary asked the AMDA forum if anyone had anything to add to the "Unsuitable Species List" the rdo gang was working on. Tom White attacked Mary for threatening his livelyhood and soon Elwyn was telling us about the 1% DOA. It got a little crazy after that.

 

[Len]

I never said you were directing it at me, I was just giving you an example based on my experience to answer your call to positivity. I don't see people not participating. In fact, I see more people participating than ever before. So I'm not so sure people are intimidated and afraid to post.

I've gotten numerous private messages telling me this forum is too intimidating to post in. Some are afraid of posting because they believe opinions aren't discussed as much as they are dissected. Others believe that this forum is nothing except an anti-NGO forum and fear their pro-NGO stance will earn them nothing but malice. This is not my personal evaulation or estimation.

We are seeing more people and more activity in The Industry Forum then ever before, but it's grown increasingly homogenized. Let's work together to make this arena more inviting for all opinions to flourish. All communities fall victim to homogenization over time, but it is something that we should take active steps to prevent. This is particularly imperative in a forum of this nature.

I think all we ask in here is for some honesty, and the ability to back up your claims. If you can't do that and you post some pie-in-the-sky, put on a happy face, can't we all just get along post, you're asking for some opposition. I think many of us expect people with an opinion on these issues to have a reason why they hold that opinion. And yes, people may get asked the tough questions. And if they can't answer them, well I wonder about their convictions. But frankly, I'd be more afraid to post "I'm putting a yellow tang in my 30 gallon" in the main forum than to address any issue here.

I am in agreement with you. I am not asking people to stop tackling serious issues. Express your opinions, but please always do so with constructive intent. If ever you find yourself posting simply to denegrate or devalue, don't click that submit button. There are plenty of posts in this never ending thread that exemplify what I prefer people stop doing.

FWIW, the GRD is very placid, even in regards to tangs in small tanks

 

[Anonymous]

Just because you're in the know doesn't extrapolate to others being so.

LOL, Seamaiden. I have never been called in the know. Everything I know about the issues here I’ve learned within the last year and can be easily found on the internet by doing a little reading or by contacting some of the contributors to this forum.

The negative issues about MAC can be found on nearly any thread in this forum. Any of them. Any. Ad nausium Why are so many so terrified that someone might come here and not immediately see the MAC-bashers concerns? I, for one, do not want negativism to be the first thing a new person sees when they come here. I’ve talked with many hobbyists that say: “I don’t visit that forum - it’s just one big groan(*) and moan session”. I do not want these typical, but environmentally conscious hobbyists, to tune out the central message here.

I do understand the concerns regarding MAC; but bickering, argument and accusation will do little to cause any person or entity to change. What can cause an NGO to change its agenda? It is not complaints, it is money. Why not form an NGO competitive with MAC and create what you perceive to be a better ecological reform model and a superior certification process? Between Steve, Mary, Horge, Ferdinand, Jamie, Peter and yourself all the expertise and personnel necessary is available. If your group is more effective than previous NGOs, and get the word out regarding your success, your group will get the funding that previously went to the other groups. Competition is good. Competition will affect change in the status quo.

I get the strong feeling that you'd like everyone to simply accept the party line and the status quo.

Would you say that to my face? I will not accept the status quo until the earth is better ecologically everywhere, both on land and sea. I’ve spent my entire life and career on improving the environment. We have similar goals, your strong feeling is absolutely not correct.

-Lee

(* - word changed to protect the innocent)

Len, you did a very good job of speaking for me earlier. Thank you.