Cardinal Collection

[PeterIMA]

Kalk,
I agree with some of your points. You are right that a lot depends on the relationship between the exporter and the importer. The exporter makes choices about the quality of packing water, the duration the fish are held prior to shipping, the volume of water in the bags and the ratio of compressed oxygen, whether or not the fish were treated for disease, whether heat packs or cold packs are applied in the box etc. Better shippers may use a buffer, or a synthetic salt with more buffer than some other brand (good point). The importers also make choices about the acclimation procedures they use, whether they treat the fish with antibiotics or not (generally needed with stressed fish because of bacterial infections), they also can hold the fish long-enough to allow stress hormone levels to decline (but most don't), use reduced lighting in the receiving room (to reduce stress) etc.

Some exporters and some importers do a better job with handling fish than others. Generally, those that have been in business the longest have the most experience. It should not come as too much of a surprize to find that new exporters or new importers do not know how to apply the best shipping and handling techniques.

I believe that the MO trade can benefit from improvements in these techniques. The industry as a whole would benefit from publicizing the better holding/shipping methods. Generally, this information is not being shared, because the techniques that work give the companies that use them a competitive advantage. The result is high mortality overall in the trade. Enventually, legislators will decide whether a trade that supports the use of cyanide and kills more fish than it sells should be allowed to continue or not.

Peter Rubec

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, In your hypothetical analogy about the scientist with the clip board getting two DOA estimates from two importers (each stating their DOA was low and their competitor's DOA high), which of the two importers was lying if the actual average DOA is low (9% in you analogy)?

 

[MaryHM]

Jenn,

I don't find your questions as an attack at all, although I was under the impression that you completely understood the changes that have taken place in the past few months. In the past I did have a "guarantee" of sorts on my net caught fish and said so on my stocklists. But as I've stated in the past, I no longer import fish from the net caught only stations in the Philippines. When I'm buying from a station that isn't 100% dedicated to net caught, instead of following the normal trend and saying "Yes! All of my fish are net caught!" I tell the truth. I do not import from the net caught only stations (all 2 of them) anymore, so there is a good chance that some of the target species I get are caught with cyanide. I'm not going to hide it or deny it. With my reputation, I could easily bring in fish from a non-net caught supplier and still call them net caught. No one would be the wiser. My stance hasn't changed. I still think the cyanide trade is despicable and I will still support net caught when I can. If a net caught supplier in the Philippines or Indonesia can learn how to export fish properly, then I'll be right back there supporting them 100%. The problem with the net caught suppliers out of the Philippines currently is that frankly, THEY SUCK. It's not even so much of a variety issue as it is a quality issue. One good shipment out of every 3 does not a profitable business make. You know I always had two Philippine suppliers. One net caught supplier for the cyanide target species and some fill in, and one fill in supplier for all of the fish that are known to be net caught to help increase my variety. They were separated out on my list. I was getting extremely tired of throwing out buckets of dead net caught fish and rarely ever a fish from the fill in supplier. The last shipment of net caught fish I brought in a few months ago cost over $2000. Out of that shipment, I received 100 cleaner shrimp alive and a few other miscellaneous inverts. The vast majority (upwards of 85%) of the fish were DOA or dead the next day. I immediately called the supplier and asked what was going on. Well, they had experimented with putting some stuff in the bags to reduce ammonia. EXPERIMENTED with MY money. I was furious. There is no reason why they couldn't have bagged up a few fish at their own facility and let them sit 40 hours. That was the last straw. My husband was so sick of me supporting inferior net caught fish that he threatened to quit if I ever ordered from that supplier again. (He's the one who pulls the dead.) And that's just one story. There are several others. Like the one where the net caught fish shipment wiped out my entire fish system- Solomons, Fiji, Tonga, everything- within 2 days. I lost thousands of dollars. I simply couldn't afford to continue to support a bunch of dead net caught fish. Granted, when a shipment would come in good, it would be great. But they were too few and far between to make it profitable. In fact, I ran the numbers on my fish system and it was barely breaking even for 2003. The inconsistency was killing me. So I had to make a decision. Shut down the fish system completely, which wouldn't allow me to support any net caught suppliers, or start getting my target species from another supplier. I could not run a fish system on a bunch of gobies. So I decided to start bringing in all of my Philippine fish from my fill in supplier. And guess what? The tangs/triggers/angels were just as consistently healthy as the gobies. And guess what else? Our fish sales are up 74% compared to Jan-May of last year. You see my lists, the variety really hasn't changed all that much except for a few species here and there. That increase is basically wholly contributed to a decrease in mortality.

************************

So that's the full story behind me changing my business tactics. None of you can know how this has hurt my soul to have to do this. NONE OF YOU. To take something that has been a passion of mine for so many years and to have to crush that passion in order to survive makes me SICK. But what choice do I have? Seriously, I want someone in here to tell me what choice I have. And make it a realistic option- not some pie in the sky idealist one. I can't shut down the fish system and I can't continue supporting dead net caught. So I'm between a rock and a hard place. Damed if I do and damned if I don't. And that my friends, is why I'm in the process of finding an exit strategy. If you doubt my sincerity, I would invite you to go to this thread and talk to the people who heard my "sell out" presentation the other day.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... did=369705

Wayne, since you can't post over there if you want to ask those people something let me know and I'll submit it for you. (No sarcasm intended).

**********************************************

And one more thing. It's really easy for some of you who have no financial stake in this industry to sit in front of a computer and tell us how to run our businesses. If you're so sure that your way is the right way, then why don't you buy my facility and show the world that it can be done? PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS. If you're not willing to do that- to experience first hand some of the stuff you continually spout off about- then what does that say about you? Or in lieu of buying my business, invest in it. Send me $50,000 and I'll bring in net caught fish for the rest of this year. Of course, you'll only get a return if the fish turn a profit. But since you are so sure that net caught is the only way to go, that shouldn't be an issue. You know you'll profit, right? Can't lose with good old net caught!! Any takers?? You can contact me via pm. I'll be waiting- but not holding my breath.

 

[MaryHM]

Jenn,

I was surprised that you asked about this when I was sure we had talked about it before. I just found the link:

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=48229

Basically, it says exactly what I said here, except in a much condensed version.

 

[clarionreef]

Imagine if you will,
Applying the same standards you hold for Mary...to MAC.
Did they also fall from grace? Or did they ever attain it?
They spent a few million on this issue, so why is it that AFTER ALL THESE YEARS Mary can't get well handled netcaught fish worth a damn?
Steve
PS. All the certified dealers run the same fish they ever did. The only difference is that their cyanide inventories are now cloaked in a bogus 'facility certification."

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk, In your hypothetical analogy about the scientist with the clip board getting two DOA estimates from two importers (each stating their DOA was low and their competitor's DOA high), which of the two importers was lying if the actual average DOA is low (9% in you analogy)?

Both. No one is going to state for the record that their own DOA rates are higher then the competions. Thats why only first hand data from actual real word events is the only way a scientist can get acurate data. Also , as far as fish that die in the bag on the way to the USA.......American importers have little effect on the survival of these fish . The fish are prepted and bagged in the country of origin. They are the experts . And there are very few "new" exporters. If a new collector starts shipping and sends 40 percent dead fish ......that would be the end of his new venture.

 

[naesco]

Mary you had no option.
The only thing you can do is try to be as close to cyanide/P/I free wherever possible.

 

[MaryHM]

Thank you for understanding, Wayne. And whenever possible either now or in the future I will support net caught.

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, Then we only have your word that the actual DOA was low. Right?

Now, who should I believe you or the actual importers and exporters?

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk, Then we only have your word that the actual DOA was low. Right?

Now, who should I believe you or the actual importers and exporters?

Your welcome any Monday to come to the ATL airport and over sea the unboxing. Or you can order some boxes of fish from me.......You pick the fish species and the country of origin. I will ship them straight to you . But it does not really matter what my DOA rates are . Its the average industry wide DOA rate that is being contested. What I feel has been happening is that you have been in contact with mostly new importers bringing in Net collected fish . These new net caught fish shippers as Mary has pointed out have a long way to go before they learn to ship fish as effectively as the tried and true collectors that ship to the LAX importers. How the fish are treated before they are bagged for the trip overseas plays a greater role in DOA the any other factor........EVEN CYANIDE! Your own data shows that cyanide collected fish seem to fare better then net collected? Why do you feel that is? Is it the cyanide that makes the fish more resistant to stress? Maybe so.......if someone kidnaps me using a tranquilizer dart........I will wake up in my new location relaxed and will have experienced little stress from the ordeal. On the other hand if I am kidnaped with ropes and stuffed in a bag kicking and screaming all the way to my new relocation .......I will most likely feel pretty exhausted. Thats one of the reasons I spoke up two years ago {AND EVEN HORGE agreed} that we need to find a new replacement for cyanide .{ A more reef freindly one } Nets are great, but not if you cant collect the fish . If the netters cant come up with blue tangs .......someone else will. .......... I would much rather they use cyande or a cyanide replacement to get at the hiding fish ...........then a crowbar and a hand net.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Also, I forgot to bring up the issue that almost all the fish shipped to the Florida importers like Seagrest.......Land the fish in LAX first. then the fish are reoxed and sent on to FLA. This does place an additional burden on the fish . But while I am sure FLA importers experience a higher DOA rate then LAX ......I would not venture to say that it would be 40% . There are those Fla importers that have their fish sent over the Atlantic . But the layovers in Europe increase the total time in the box to about the same duration as if the fish had gone through LAX. .......so the result is the same either way.

 

[clarionreef]

Ever hear of the old adage that "treachery and experience ill outdo youth and lack of experience every time? or something like that?
Some old school dealers have 40 years of handling fish under their belt....
The new pseudo-eco-moonie exporter trying to cash in on the imagined demand [LOL] for netcaught fish brings niether book knowledge nor experience.
Some of the worst shippers I've ever seen were Hawaiian and Floridian. They were new and trying to cash in like the experienced guys.
The worst shipper of late from the orient, spritzed the packing water with lethal doses of copper because that he heard that copper, like anti-biotics was 'bad' in the systme water. The second worst shipper of netcaught fish put newly mixed saltwater and shipped in it at the same time...burning all the fish and causing the skin to seperate from the body!
Still another thought that the lack of variety in available netcaught fish would be offset by their great demand and doubling of prices.
Working with and fixing these people has been a curse on our company as they have dragged us down with all their baggage.
Some of them are coming around and show promise. A few others have not.
Like the reform NGOs, the amatuerishness and lack of talent in the subject matter was not offset by the higher virtues being touted. If you don't know what you are doing...you will kill even Hawaiian fish.
These exporters that I speak of were generally MAC inspired and MAC "trained". Now, if only someone could train MAC we could make some progress.
Like incompetent dive training or drivers training...incompetence in handling and 'inspiring' collectors and shippers has killed a lot of fish.
...and continues to.
This answers Kalks question for all but him.
Steve
PS. What is needed of course is competent exporters with netcaught fish.
What a difficult concept to grasp, no?

 

[PeterIMA]

First, I wish to express my sympathy to Mary Middlebrook. She has done much more than most in the aquarium trade to promote net-caught fish. I want her to make a profit on net-caught fish. This is not as easy as many of us first thought.

Over the past 20 years I have obtained first-hand information from a number of export and import companies that dealt with net-caught marine fish. Generally, they were smaller companies with less experience. They were faced with a number of problems previously mentioned by Steve Robinson. They may not have been able to provide a wide variety of species, and smaller orders generally have higher freight rates rates that make them less economic to the importers buying the fish.

I have heard from a variety of sources that the net-caught fish that came from net-caught importers experienced as high a mortality at the retail level as fish that came from known importers of cyanide-caught fish. This is of great concern to me, since I believe that net-caught fish eat better and live longer in hobbyists' tanks.

But, first they run a guantlet like the cyanide-caught fish from the reefs to the retailers. This includes the poor holding practices described by Jaime Baquero at the village level, and the way the fish are handled by exporters. Assuming these methods apply to both net-caught and to cyanide-caught fish, why do the fish die either at the importer or retail level? I have already mentioned stress, disease, ammonia, and other stressors brought on by overcrowding and poor water-quality during shipping.

My previous comments indicated less experienced net-caught exporters have created the kind of problems experienced by Mary (inconsistent shipments some with high mortality). However, the study by Frank Lallo indicates that the same problems exist with cyanide-caught fish resulting in very high mortality at the retail level (60% on average on the east coast, 35% in the mid-west, and 30% on the west coast). Most of those interviewed did not sell net-caught fish. So, I reject Kalk's assertion that net-caught fish experience higher mortality than cyanide-caught fish.

Steve Robinson told me the other day that his import mortality on net-caught fish from the Philippines was 2% or less. So, it is possible for an importer to have low mortality on net-caught fish. There are five net-caught suppliers that I know of. Some are better than others in providing quality fish with low rates of mortality.

However, I tend to accept Kalk's comment that cyanide-caught fish may experience less stress because they react like they were drugged, whereas the net-caught fish being undrugged experience more stress. We don't have a scientific study for exactly this analogy. However, there is evidence that fish are stressed by being netted and bagged. Redfish (Scienops ocellatus) that were anaesthetized with MS-222 and then placed in plastic bags did not experience a stress response (increase in corticosteroids and glucocorticoid hormones). The clownfish study I cited previously (where no sedative was used) found that the carbon dioxide and ammonia excretion was highest soon after they were bagged (indicating the fish were agitated and stressed by being placed in the bags).

Others have added sedatives to the shipping water in sealed plastic bags. The scientific literature indicates that 2-phenoxyethanol and quinaldine were used to sedate fish (guppies and tiger barbs) and that over 48 hours ammonia and carbon dioxide concentrations in the water in the bags were significantly lower with the test fish than with controls (fish that were not sedated). However, there is evidence from a study on rainbow trout that sedatives (including 2-phenoxyethanol and quinaldine sulfate) ellicited stress responses (increases in corticosteroids and glucocorticoids).

It has been scientifically demonstrated that guppies and tiger barbs survive longer and can be packed at higher densities in sealed plastic bags containing clinoptolite (to absorb ammonia), 2-phenoxyethanol (sedative), Tris buffer, and neomycin sulfate (to control proliferation of bacteria).

Ferdinand and I are starting experiments to evaluate survival of marine fish with various additives. We don't yet have all the answers, but feel it is necessary to develop better handling and shipping techniques for marine aquarium fish that will ensure that marine aquarium fish shipped in plastic bags consistently survive to ensure profitability for the importer and to provide fish that live in hobbyists' tanks.

Peter Rubec

 

[Kalkbreath]

Peter Rubec wrote: "Mary asked me for scientific evidence of long-term scientific studies with fish exposed to cyanide. I have previously discussed the mortality study by Hall and Bellwood (1995) that determined the delayed mortality to damselfish over a 13 day period for cyanide-alone (37.5 %), stress-alone (25%), starvation-alone (0%), CN+stress (25%), CN+starvation (33.3%), stress+starvation (66.7%), and CN+stress+starvation (41.7%). It should be noted that these results pertain to the % mortality for separate test groups of damsels exposed to each condition and the conditions listed in combination. Hence, they are not additive (do not total 100%). They support the idea that cyanide in combination with the other factors increased the mortality. It should also be noted that stress-alone and stress+stravation are associated with high mortality without the fish having been exposed to cyanide."

Your data shows stress and starvation at 66.7% and cyanide and starvation at only half as much ....33.3% Please explain why your personal position counters this ?

 

[devils advocate]

Mary you had no option.
The only thing you can do is try to be as close to cyanide/P/I free wherever possible.

This response is rather puzzling. In Wayne's world, how is this justified when in the past you have expressed a very strong opinion to a point where you would like to jail all those involved with the cyanide cartel. This is not an indictment on Mary's business practice as she needs to do what she thinks is best for her business. I'm just very perplexed now how being close to cyanide free is OK for you now. Why the sudden change of heart? You have advocated a zero tolerance for cyanide fish, shutting down to trade in Indonesia and the Philippines, jailing all involved in the cartel, now it's fine if you are "close to cyanide free" :? .

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, I did not invent the experiment by Hall and Bellwood (1995) or the results. It could be that the cyanide+starvation result is anomalous. If it were repeated, the results might be different. It does not change my position based on extensive reviews of both the scientific and hobby literature that cyanide fishing is harmful both to the coral reefs and the fish being exported.

My position is broader than the box you seem intent on putting me in (that I am against the use of cyanide). I am not just against the use of cyanide, I am against all destructive fishing practices. There is a need to protect coastal habititats (not just coral reefs). I also see the need for reform of capture methods (nets rather than cyanide) and handling/shipping practices due to the high mortality in the trade. Finally, I am not seeking to shut down the trade, just reform that can benefit the fishermen and others involved in the aquarium trade.

Peter

 

[clarionreef]

Peter,
I applaud your post and just want to remind you that it is way over the head of Kalk and his ilk in LA.
No one makes a profit off a dead reef but the conventional importer and those who tranship thru his business plan live in the 'short term' on a permanant basis.
MAC should take note of how difficult it is to sell anyone on actually, genuinely doing the right thing in deed...instead of empty formulatic platitudes on wall paper cerificates and barely memorized 'eco-win-win' dogma.
The trade and hobby at all levels have trouble connecting professed values with values to live by. Preaching an anti drug message while dealing in drugs makes people hypocrites and liars. This truth divides us and causes friction between the caring people and the care-less ones.
The 'care-nots' certainly have history and the status quo in their favor...but somethings gonna give...someones gonna lose.
This thing is far from over and the drama continues far beyond the chat-room attention span for it.
All I can say is that this industry is soo lucky that the USCRTF and most eco-NGOs haven't got a clue what really happens underwater to bring us our precious cargo.
Kalk means nothing Peter and is a waste of time...Unless you like the practice....
The pending training projects still on the table in Asia are our best shot at getting divers really trained in netting, handling and safety.
This reform will have to be more local. The West is too busy working on sales, investing in distribution schemes that require a permanant fish supply and designing better ways to push product.
Importers understand the limits, restrictions and trends that tighten supply. They know very well what I'm saying...but they will not speak. Their conflicts of interest in the 'regular system' are too heavy. End consumers are too far removed to really "get it"...and seem to share the same ethical blinders as the importers.
After our lifetime of taking them for granted... Seahorses were banned this past week...a prelude of trends in motion and things to come. Whats next?
Steve

 

[naesco]

Mary you had no option.
The only thing you can do is try to be as close to cyanide/P/I free wherever possible.

This response is rather puzzling. In Wayne's world, how is this justified when in the past you have expressed a very strong opinion to a point where you would like to jail all those involved with the cyanide cartel. This is not an indictment on Mary's business practice as she needs to do what she thinks is best for her business. I'm just very perplexed now how being close to cyanide free is OK for you now. Why the sudden change of heart? You have advocated a zero tolerance for cyanide fish, shutting down to trade in Indonesia and the Philippines, jailing all involved in the cartel, now it's fine if you are "close to cyanide free" :? .

Nothing has changed in my view. Unable to get net caught fish Mary has admitted that she is buying possible cyanide caught fish in order for her business to survive.
When the playing field is level, no fish will be allowed to beimported from the Philippines and Indonesia

 

[devils advocate]

I guess I misunderstood the tone of your post. It appears that you are alright with the decision to purchase possible cyanide caught fish and justify it by saying that it is for the survival of her business. Does the end justify the means? Maybe all the other big importers in LA figured this out a long time ago. After all...it is for the business to survive.

Oh ya..she did have a choice, which was stated...don't carry fish at all.

 

[naesco]

I guess I misunderstood the tone of your post. It appears that you are alright with the decision to purchase possible cyanide caught fish and justify it by saying that it is for the survival of her business. Does the end justify the means? Maybe all the other big importers in LA figured this out a long time ago. After all...it is for the business to survive.

Oh ya..she did have a choice, which was stated...don't carry fish at all.

Yes, you certainly are the devils advocate.