Hobbiest comments to the MAC guys.

[clarionreef]

" However, I agree that other experts such as Horge, Steve Robinson, or Jessica Meeuwig could advise MAC and ReefCheck "

PETER,
WE ALREADY DID THIS...
That deal was cancelled by MAC already on the opinion of Mark and Rick Pruess on account of their business differences with a back then competitor, Mike King of the CORL group.
In fact, I will never forget the phone call when they offered to accept the proposal if only I would abandon CORL and do it with just them :x

Besides, how can we advise a group that got its funding based on the claim of knowledge, talent and the expertise to do this job without asking for free advice on a hobbyist chatroom? :roll: Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve, I agree that it is odd that six months or more into the MAMTI project, MAC staff (who are supposed to be experts) are asking for free advice on Reefs.org

Peter Rubec

 

[horge]

Dizzy,
Peter is entirely correct to ask what qualifications I might bring.
I wish more people in and around MAC were as critical as he is presently.
None of you really know anything about me, save perhaps my familiarity
with certain aspects of the trade (on this side of the puddle).

As an aside, money is tight around here, and since mid-2004 I've no
longer had time to spare for anything more than occasional touching-base
with those who still field-slog.

--------

how can we advise a group that got its funding based on the
claim of knowledge, talent and the the expertise to do its job without
asking for free advice on a hobbyist chatroom?
-Steve

I agree that it is odd that six months or more into the MAMTI
project, MAC staff (who are supposed to be experts) are asking for free
advice on Reefs.org
-Peter Rubec

Heh.
Asking for such basic advice here, despite sitting on top of what ought to be six
(seven? eight?) years of data and experience --and a superabundance of
third-party literature on such matters, IS rather odd.

Steve R and Mike King (solid experience AND proven track record)
were throwing MAC a lifesaver. Me? If I were MAC I'd have signed them
up before those two'd realized the magnitude of what they were giving up
for the long term.

:roll:

Maybe MAC can still catch the bus... maybe.


h.

 

[Anonymous]

free isn't even the issue :wink:

just that anyone from mac is asking for 'advice' is telling enough, n'est ce pas?


(pardon my french) :lol:



fer jeebus' sake, a class of high school kids could have accomplished sooooooo much more w/the same amount of money-in fact, anyone even remotely interested in actually doing what mac claims to want to do would have gotten so much more done already :wink:

conclusion?


too late for any backpedallin' by anyone MAC-they've already shown what MAC is good for- MAC is good for MAC (as sooooo may of us have been saying for quite awhile already)


mark- you may genunely believe in what you're doing, and that MAC can do what you think it will do, or that it's even interested in doing it


you are in for a VERY big dissapointment


for that, i sympathize for you


just hope your eyes are opening wider daily, and that your naivete' doesn't blind you forever :wink:

 

[coralfarmin]

TIME OUT :!:

In this thread, I think Mark only opened to suggestions, since it was being thrown in his face, that the Mac was not :? :? :? :?

Then asked some questions himself, he did not join for advice imo, just to defend his honor, imo
Please, catch me up to speed...or is this in some other thread ?

I don't think hes here representing the Mac, for advice..ie.

But for Mark..ie.

 

[dizzy]

.
4. It is unfair to say that any suggestions made are dismissed. I haven't seen many if any positive, constructive comments made here. It's ususally about what has happened in the past. MAC is evolving; certainly not as quickly as many of you would like to see, but I can tell you there are great challenges here. It has been said that 1000 collectors can be trained in 1 year. Trained to do what? collect fish? handle them properly?
I think that estimate is totally unrealistic. I would love to get suggestions from any of you.

All Mark is saying is that he is willing to listen to suggestions. I thought Horge has provided some useful ones in the past, so I thought they should hook up. I was just joking about going to work for the MAC and I don't know if they are hiring anyway.
Mitch

 

[coralfarmin]

mistake..sorry

 

[clarionreef]

Mark says;
"It has been said that 1000 collectors can be trained in 1 year. Trained to do what? collect fish? handle them properly?
I think that estimate is totally unrealistic."

You estimate? Based on what ?

1,000 collectors divided by 12 months is 83.3 per month.
At a mellow pace of 2 trainings per month thats 41.65 guys per training.

We already did this for a few consecutive months in 1993 and the divers graduated are working all over the world. It stopped only because the program director refused to buy more nets [ as budgeted ] as they wanted to save money.
I supplied the nets til I ran out and so only a few hundred divers were trained. Then I had to resign as it is the only honorable thing to do when your own project decides to embezzle the funds granted.
The only thing worse then telling the truth of things like this...is not telling it.

But...the 1,000 diver target in a year is easy to reach if you actually know what you're doing. I can't imagine how to proceed if I were just trying to figure it out from scratch......or follow some silly template.
Steve

 

[mkirda]

However, I agree that other experts such as Horge, Steve Robinson, or Jessica Meeuwig could advise MAC and ReefCheck where they might conduct their initial surveys and community-based trainings. Mark and/or other MAC personnel should also contact reef scientists at the University of the Philippines (Diliman).

Peter Rubec

I'm not so willing that they'd being willing to share this info even if they knew it. Why should they?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[horge]

All Mark is saying is that he is willing to listen to suggestions. I thought Horge has provided some useful ones in the past, so I thought they should hook up. I was just joking about going to work for the MAC and I don't know if they are hiring anyway.
Mitch

Mitch,
I knew you were joking about a 'job'.
My comment, on my not having any free time any more for the old
bump and grind was meant to reflect on my general usefulness
(which Peter was calling into question): I'm not as current on
pertinent news/info as I could be.

IIRC Mark was asking for (among other things) leads on ideal collection sites.
Mike Kirda is correct to suspect that if I knew of any, I would never reveal
such locations to MAC or to any commercial MO outfit.
I'm pro-environment, and pro-Philippines.

That does not always (nor often) translate into pro - US MO industry.

h

 

[clarionreef]

Caraaay!
The best and the brightest there to fix a problem I heard. A serious problem they said.
But when they got there....they couldn't find it? After 7 years?
"Wheres the beef? Can't find the beef?"

Mark...first, I'll tell you where not to train. Not in Jolo or Tawi Tawi.
Creating more divers out of rebel returnees instead of converting existing cyanide fisherman is very unwise and indicative of insincere motives.
Yeah, yeah...the CIA had money up front....Lino told me...but puh-lease. The fact that no one was converted means that the net increase in the fish collector population was initiated for business.

Second, everyone knows inside this trade where the hot-spots are.
Every exporter deals with fisherman coming in from the field every day.

Working for MAC and the IMA, Ferdie circled the country many times and worked many villages. He knows this stuff in his sleep.
I worked with Ferdie on exactly this for quite some time because we had an accord to train for...er...sub-contract out for MAC.
It had the two dozen leading edge areas where the need is the greatest based on the existance of a cyanide fishing population of divers doing current damage to the reefs.
What other criteria is there? What is the reform thing for if not to reform an existing problem?
But, Ferdie doesn't work for MAC anymore...and I never did.
Is this really the beggining?
Is MAC ...born again?


Steve

 

[Anonymous]

I just read this whole thread, and I wanted to know...can someone get me a scorecard? I'm having trouble placing people on their respective sides.

Also, some peeps say one thing happened, other say differently. This means some people are lying.

Well, who's lying? I need the proof.

Peace,

Chip

 

[Anonymous]

'proof'?


where are the MAC certified fish ? :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

where's the CDT test ? :wink:

 

[Jaime Baquero]

No all good fish collectors trained in the past are in other countries. The are in the Philippines and are training other collectors.

 

[clarionreef]

Steve wrote earlier;

PS. Besides, they have some talented Filipino " assistant trainers" to show them how to do it. They sort of teach the teacher...to then teach. [ see, I said they're not all gone!]
Only a few of them are left in the Philippines though, about 35 or so of the very best ones are working abroad in Saudi, Belize, Vanuatu, Tonga etc.
. This brain drain has hurt progress in P.I. but at least business people know talent and they pay for it. NGOs have largely been jealous of this talent and don't want it to get to center stage and usurp them in the limelight.

And....I happen to know of 6 more Filipino netsman that are leaving next week to work in Tonga.
Will the last experienced net collector left in P.I. please turn out the lights?
Steve
PS. Their talent seems to be appreciated everywhere more then in their own country...and thats because these guys are paid so little by MAC for their value to the cause and so much better abroad.

 

[coralfarmin]

No all good fish collectors trained in the past are in other countries. The are in the Philippines and are training other collectors.

I take offense to that, I happen to be a procollector , imo :lol:

Anyone, who has access to chickens can learn to collect fish :lol:
If you have ever tried catchin chickens, with your hands & the left, right, slow, fast, sike-out, manuver....with the possiblity of the chicken gettin sporatic, unpredictable bursts of energy, in a 360 degree radius.
And also, collected marine fish

you'd know what I was talkin about :lol:

 

[coralfarmin]

btw..when I was a kid, sometimes I even collected fish and chased chickens, all in the same day :wink:

 

[naesco]

The issue here that we all share is saving our hobby and your business from imminent closure.

Anytime, anyone is willing to listen to those who have something to say can only be a positive.

Advise and listen up

Wayne Ryan

 

[Anonymous]

The issue here that we all share is saving our hobby and your business from imminent closure.

Anytime, anyone is willing to listen to those who have something to say can only be a positive.

Advise and listen up

Wayne Ryan

and some of us are glory hounds who'd do anything for a canadian national medal :lol: :roll:

you've been spewing imminent closure for a few years now, wayne...

i guess it's as imminent as the CDT ? :lol: