LEDs - Good, Bad or just another addiction?

[KuyaMark]

Its true that you can always get burned because new innovations come out. My measure is purely based on now much money will be spent operating each unit over a period of 5-7 years. You can operate the Pacific Sun units with no additional cost to your initial investment (of course the electric is needed). But a T5 unit will not only use 30% more electricity, you have to factor how many times you have to replace bulbs. Thats why we say after 2-3 years, you will be making money from the switch over. Don't forget, if you switch over, you also can sell your T5 unit to recoup a good amount of the cost for the Pacsuns.

But don't forget, not only are you getting the savings but you are getting a much better and more fun to use light! Your tank will never look the same under these actinics. They blow away any T5 actinic hands down. If you ask anyone running these lights, they will tell you that T5 users will drop their jaw when they see the blues on these units.

One last factor is even with T5's, some users need to run a chiller in the summertime or really play with the room temp to avoid running too hot. I know this because I was a Nova Extreme Pro user and the water heated up just like MH. These units will allow your tank to run at whatever you set your room temp. at. Remember, the key to coral health and success is stability of water parameters. The constant 24 hour temp. stability is a huge factor in long term health as well as the simulated natural light cycles in nature.

I agree with Felix I bought 2 120w bt units and I am so amazed by how the light system is! I am running less wattage as compare to my 2 250w mh and 4 t5's and I am getting the same light output!
I can actually see more growth with these lights than my previous light setup. I was skeptical at first but when i sa these lights and played with it I was sold! All I can say is that I will never go back to MH and t5's. Yes initial investment is high but it will pay off in a couple of years that's how i see it less electricity consumption and I don't have to but mh and t5 bulbs every 7 months and that alone is well worth it!

 

[Tim]

I don`t know if this has been asked but how are they w/30 in. deep tank`s??????

 

[cali_reef]

Its true that you can always get burned because new innovations come out. My measure is purely based on now much money will be spent operating each unit over a period of 5-7 years. You can operate the Pacific Sun units with no additional cost to your initial investment (of course the electric is needed). But a T5 unit will not only use 30% more electricity, you have to factor how many times you have to replace bulbs. Thats why we say after 2-3 years, you will be making money from the switch over. Don't forget, if you switch over, you also can sell your T5 unit to recoup a good amount of the cost for the Pacsuns.

But don't forget, not only are you getting the savings but you are getting a much better and more fun to use light! Your tank will never look the same under these actinics. They blow away any T5 actinic hands down. If you ask anyone running these lights, they will tell you that T5 users will drop their jaw when they see the blues on these units.

One last factor is even with T5's, some users need to run a chiller in the summertime or really play with the room temp to avoid running too hot. I know this because I was a Nova Extreme Pro user and the water heated up just like MH. These units will allow your tank to run at whatever you set your room temp. at. Remember, the key to coral health and success is stability of water parameters. The constant 24 hour temp. stability is a huge factor in long term health as well as the simulated natural light cycles in nature.

Who changes their T5 bulbs every 6-8 months?? the T5's over my FOWLR are more than 2 years old. I don't have a T5 only reef tank, but I don't change my MH bulbs at less than 13+ month of use. Comparing bulb cost at these change rates are somewhat unrealistic. What is the degradation rates on these LED's? are you sure they will be able to last 5-7 years and not need any LED replacement?

Do you have any idea what's the cost to change out LED's after the warranty expires or if the company goes out of business? Bulbs on these thing are not plug and play, how do you quantify the lost use of the light when it needs to be serviced? I can change out my light bulbs in less than a minuet and not lose light over my coral for days.

 

[rafal07013]

few facts:

- Przemek's reef history is about 15yrs and was one the first people in that business in Poland (saltwater) after the fall of comunism.
- it seems to me highly unlikely that the guy who goes out and invests over 2-3yrs of his life to make very good product and has sell outlets all over the europe would out of the blue decided to quit.
- LED bulbs are replacebale - I assume you have not had the unit in your hands.
- service is done in US
- heat sink/LED board in all models BP, Deimos, Phobos is designed to be interchangable therefore future units may have new LED bulbs in them but you would need only replace the LED board
- it costs more to send Current USA T5 light fixture to California for service than have the LED unit serviced in NY/NJ

Now, let me say this - the first order had some issues - I will be first one to admit - such as PAR Table not working properly, faulty hanging kits etc. but you can work around those problems and solve them. I was told new hanging kits are coming, software update and extra spare parts to be on hand (fans/drivers/pc circuit boards).

Do you have any idea what's the cost to change out LED's after the warranty expires or if the company goes out of business? Bulbs on these thing are not plug and play, how do you quantify the lost use of the light when it needs to be serviced? I can change out my light bulbs in less than a minuet and not lose light over my coral for days.

 

[reefer49]

This afternoon during a very boring meeting I convinced myself to take the leap to LEDs. I’ve read a ton here and other sites and decided to a risk it and try the MaxSpect G2 -160. Was planning to preorder them from lck LEDs tonight when I get home.

Right now I have a 40B with 2x150MH and 2xT-5 over it. All the bulbs are old and need replacement. I struggle with heat every summer since I have no chiller and have to crank the a/c to keep the tank temp down. Figured might as well try it then buy all new bulbs.

Please someone give me a heads up if this is a scam about I’m about to walk into..

 

[cali_reef]

few facts:

- Przemek's reef history is about 15yrs and was one the first people in that business in Poland (saltwater) after the fall of comunism.
- it seems to me highly unlikely that the guy who goes out and invests over 2-3yrs of his life to make very good product and has sell outlets all over the europe would out of the blue decided to quit.
- LED bulbs are replacebale - I assume you have not had the unit in your hands.
- service is done in US
- heat sink/LED board in all models BP, Deimos, Phobos is designed to be interchangable therefore future units may have new LED bulbs in them but you would need only replace the LED board
- it costs more to send Current USA T5 light fixture to California for service than have the LED unit serviced in NY/NJ

Now, let me say this - the first order had some issues - I will be first one to admit - such as PAR Table not working properly, faulty hanging kits etc. but you can work around those problems and solve them. I was told new hanging kits are coming, software update and extra spare parts to be on hand (fans/drivers/pc circuit boards).

I don't have any experience with the Polish LED's, or any LED light used for aquarium trade. But I can tell you I have been spec'ing and buying LED's for the last 6-7 years in my field of work. I know how long these thing last on an aircraft, and I won't be spending my own money on these things anytime soon.

Your fact list still don't address the questions I listed. I am pretty sure PFO (a very reputable US aquarium lighting company that have been in business a VERY LONG TIME) didn't think they were going to go out of business when they spend the time and money on LED technology neither :lol2:.

 

[Awibrandy]

Cali, I can be a little dense therefor I need clarification at times.lol Are you saying that this whole LED business may not be as great/good as it appears?
I personally cannot afford them currently, especially since the cheapest of all units would still run me some where around $1200 or so. But I am trying to keep up with what is being said about them for the future.

 

[AlohaTropics]

Cali, depending on how hot you are running your bulbs, you can lose 2000K in your spectrum output every 6 months. The industry recommendation is to replace every 6-8 months or at the very least 1x per year. This goes for MH bulbs as well. My figures are based on benchmarking performance of LEDs over the same time period. You have to compare apples to apples. You can't take the LED unit performing at peak levels and compare it to T5's that are 2 years old performing at 40% and with the spectrum shifting 8000K on you. Thats not a valid comparison of Product Value. You have to maintain optimum performance in the alternative lighting unit in order to fairly benchmark it against a perfectly working LED unit.

Again, the PacificSun Lamps offer a 3year non prorated warranty to cover the LED board so if any go out, you would receive a new light board. This was designed because by the 3rd year, your lamp should have paid for itself in operation savings.

5-7 years is actually being very modest. The lifespan of these high end LEDs are rated at 50,000 hrs. If your photoperiod is 10yrs per day, that equates to 3650 per year. By this factor, you should actually get 15 years of life but we are scaling that down to be conservative. 5-7 years is a REALLY safe number.

If what you really are concerned with is servicing these units if the companies fall through, I believe there are many people out there that can very easily service these units. Unforseen things such as the PFO situation can happen. We have seen many DIY LED units out there. There are even guys that are still servicing the Solaris 3rd party. I wouldn't worry about the servicing especially with the LED market growing the way it is right now.

:scratch: I remember you jumping all over the Zeovit discussion with negative and skeptical comments as well...are you just completely anti-change? Did you bash Protein Skimmers when they first came out years ago? lol.

 

[pecan2phat]

He only bashed MRC skimmers:lol:

This is my version of why I bought the Pac Sun lamps:
I had my view of high powered LED lamp aka Solaris & I did not care for the narrow focal optics hence the Aqua Illuminations brand was out for me. I was only interested in fully controllable units so and there are only 2 out there on the market for now. When I first started to skim through threads regarding LEDs, it seemed obvious that the technology was going from insufficient powered LEDs to high powered LEDs so the pea in the brain gets planted that anything less then 3 watts do not work for SPS specific reef tanks.
So I go out and purchase a couple of Solaris units, some new, some used. I play around with them for a few months but can't pull the trigger to buy one for my SPS tank cause I don't really know if they will grow my SPS corals. I like all the options of a controllable unit & it's neat hence the reason why I ruled out all the non-controllable units like the EcoLamp, Thortek, etc. With the problem that one of the older version Solaris was having with blown LEDs, I gather that heat is the major failing point of an LED other then poor soldering.
Yes opportunity arose when the GB for the Pac Sun units appeared. It was highly discounted from msrp and were about $1k less then the AI modules needed for a 48" tank and I had mentioned that I didn't care for the narrow focal optics that are also used in the AI modules. (these are the 2 controllable units on the market that I was referring too) I also thought that what if 1w LEDs can meet the function of growing corals, visually appeasing and less heat since they are not over driven and also primarily less energy usage.
So I waited and read on but somewhere in my head I was battling the fact that PS was a foreign brand, what support will I have for the product, blah...blah....blah.
So then I came to the conclusion that sometimes you need to take a calculated risk or maybe more of a chance.
Where would the hobby be if you didn't have motivated innovators and some risk takers?

 

[cali_reef]

:scratch: I remember you jumping all over the Zeovit discussion with negative and skeptical comments as well...are you just completely anti-change? Did you bash Protein Skimmers when they first came out years ago? lol.

Negative and skeptical? maybe about the way you are "selling" it. I know a few people that use that particular brand of ULNS before they were regularly available in the US, they all have slowly gone away from the "system" or the hobby all together :lol2:.. Keep this thread on LED's and don't start the personal attacks, I might have to bring up Vodka being the best way to keep a reef tank or how to peddle used cars:idea:.

You still didn't answer all the technical points about this great LED lights you are "shilling".

 

[cali_reef]

Cali, I can be a little dense therefor I need clarification at times.lol Are you saying that this whole LED business may not be as great/good as it appears?
I personally cannot afford them currently, especially since the cheapest of all units would still run me some where around $1200 or so. But I am trying to keep up with what is being said about them for the future.

LED have come a long way in the last ten years, they are now used on a lot more things and the light quality and price have changed greatly.

Like all things people can make money on, the one's that are in it to make money paints a different picture than what it truly is at the moment. I think LED's will replace MH and T5 one day, but not today in respect to the price, value and LED quality. I have said it many times, the "coolness" (not tank temp :lol2 is a big selling factor in this hobby, people with $$ like to have cool toys and there is nothing wrong with that.. Wait another two years as they should be at a price point where MH and T5 systems is today and maybe these light makers will have a LED manufactured specifically for aquarium trade.

Airlines are now replacing T5 bulbs on in service aircraft with LED's, this is not because they are cheaper or last longer. They are doing it because it's cool to use RGB LED's to change the color of the cabin for different time of the day, pure marketing tool\hype (I don't think anyone is willing to pay extra for a seat on the aircraft because the cabin light color changes, just get me there and maybe a free soda?). Reduction in failure rate and price also have play a big part in the switch.

 

[cali_reef]

He only bashed MRC skimmers:lol:
So then I came to the conclusion that sometimes you need to take a calculated risk or maybe more of a chance.
Where would the hobby be if you didn't have motivated innovators and some risk takers?

I hate MRC ..

Nothing wrong with taking a risk as long as you are going in with eyes wide open, we take risks every time we buy a fish . My only issue with Pacsun is the "shilling", as they can't answer my questions and have no first hand technical knowledge of the product before this order, yet this was the best LED ever made (before a final product was even available :lol2: ). Sounds like you like the Pacsun and is satisfied with the money spent, would you do it again tomorrow at list price without ever seeing an actual unit?

 

[Awibrandy]

LED have come a long way in the last ten years, they are now used on a lot more things and the light quality and price have changed greatly.

Like all things people can make money on, the one's that are in it to make money paints a different picture than what it truly is at the moment. I think LED's will replace MH and T5 one day, but not today in respect to the price, value and LED quality. I have said it many times, the "coolness" (not tank temp :lol2 is a big selling factor in this hobby, people with $$ like to have cool toys and there is nothing wrong with that.. Wait another two years as they should be at a price point where MH and T5 systems is today and maybe these light makers will have a LED manufactured specifically for aquarium trade.

Airlines are now replacing T5 bulbs on in service aircraft with LED's, this is not because they are cheaper or last longer. They are doing it because it's cool to use RGB LED's to change the color of the cabin for different time of the day, pure marketing tool\hype (I don't think anyone is willing to pay extra for a seat on the aircraft because the cabin light color changes, just get me there and maybe a free soda?). Reduction in failure rate and price also have play a big part in the switch.

Thanks for the response Cali! That is what I thought you were saying, which by the way I totally agree with you on this one.
I have to be honest, it would be very cool to have the extra $$$$$$ laying around to be able to constantly keep up with the Jones, but alas I'm not there.LOL
When I started in this hobby with just a FO tank all I needed was a regular strip light, as I added lr I had to step it up to VHO. Then I stepped into the world of corals, and while some of the animals did ok under the VHO, they did not do as well as when I moved onto MH/VHO combo, even better so as I moved up in MH wattage. I seem to always have to be behind due to the cost of anything new.lol But that is life. I remember it was only a couple of years ago that the T5 & MH fixtures would have run me upwards of $1000 new. I just did a quick look, and a 72" MH/T5 fixture would run me under $800. So I can only imagine that the same will happen to the LED. But will they prove to be as beneficial as they are being portrayed? How long will the bulbs last, how difficult, or easy will it be to change them out as they burn out? Will it be necessary to have the fixture serviced just to change out a burned out bulb.
By the time all of you are comfortable with them, and the cost has come down enough for me to afford them something else will be out.:lol2::smash:

 

[AlohaTropics]

Wow, I would have thought we covered all of the technical points in the 50 pg thread we started out with, but I am more than happy to answer any questions you still have that we didn't cover.

PS - No personal attack intended, more of a comical notation.

 

[Tim]

I have a question will LED`s be good on a 30 inch high tank?????????

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

So then I came to the conclusion that sometimes you need to take a calculated risk or maybe more of a chance.
Where would the hobby be if you didn't have motivated innovators and some risk takers?

I like this spirit!


Oops, :afro: I just burn my hair while :scratch:inventing some new toys.:afro:

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

Response in RED

With the problem that one of the older version Solaris was having with blown LEDs, I gather that heat is the major failing point of an LED other then poor soldering. I think the problem is in the controller/driver. If the controller/driver does not send more power to the LED, there is no reason for the LED to over heat. This kind of design faults are quite common in using designs not tested in US soil. I have worked on designs from foreign countries which tested perfectly in their motherlands for a year but, yet, 3 months after arriving US here they showed issues. And you know what, even at least two Con Ed district managers and an IT manager do not know that NY ac is 120-125v not 110v. Neither do I nor the engineers overseas knew then. BTW, can you test, I mean test, not just words from the suppliers' mouth, the ac voltage of your area? Thanks in advance.

...

1w LEDs ... and less heat since they are not over driven
this assumption is only by chance, there is no solid evidence of such. If the electronics is not designed to protect it from surges and other irregularies and/or the plain old substained voltage that your UT supplier puts out, it will still over drive your light and burn it eventually in many improper designs.

 

[advresource]

OVERHEATING LED's

Response in RED

Typically, the LED's are driven using a current driver circuit. The driver circuit regulates current. The power supply regulates the voltage. A lot of commercially available power supplies have variable input AC from 90VAC to 240VAC. The primary side (AC) is rectified and converted to DC using, most commonly, a pulse width modulation technique. Variation in line voltages does not have significant effect on output voltages since the control loop is usually fairly tight. That being said, the current drivers to the LED's take the stable, DC output voltage and supplies current to the actual LED's. The current is regulated via pulse width modulation but, the maximum current is accounted for by a current setting resistor on the driver boards.
The overheating of the PFO Solaris cards is not due to overpowering the diodes. The issue stems from the lack of thermal grease used during initial manufacture and during repair of the LED strips. The securing screws that holds the LED boards also can back out due to vibration in the fixture. The air gaps caused by the above two scenario's causes overheating and failure of the LED's.
In early versions of the Solaris unit, PFO used thermal grease as the diode slug interface to the circuit cards. The grease wasn't alway applied evenly causing diode overheating. Later versions of the light strips had better adhesion to the circuit cards with both solder and thermal epoxy. Those boards seem to be highly reliable when proper thermal grease spread is achieved at the circuit card to heatsink interface.
The actual LED data produced by the lighting manufacturer's shows very good reliability.
Food for thought, Mark

 

[advresource]

Who is the actual LED manufacturer?

He only bashed MRC skimmers:lol:

This is my version of why I bought the Pac Sun lamps:
I had my view of high powered LED lamp aka Solaris & I did not care for the narrow focal optics hence the Aqua Illuminations brand was out for me. I was only interested in fully controllable units so and there are only 2 out there on the market for now. When I first started to skim through threads regarding LEDs, it seemed obvious that the technology was going from insufficient powered LEDs to high powered LEDs so the pea in the brain gets planted that anything less then 3 watts do not work for SPS specific reef tanks.
So I go out and purchase a couple of Solaris units, some new, some used. I play around with them for a few months but can't pull the trigger to buy one for my SPS tank cause I don't really know if they will grow my SPS corals. I like all the options of a controllable unit & it's neat hence the reason why I ruled out all the non-controllable units like the EcoLamp, Thortek, etc. With the problem that one of the older version Solaris was having with blown LEDs, I gather that heat is the major failing point of an LED other then poor soldering.
Yes opportunity arose when the GB for the Pac Sun units appeared. It was highly discounted from msrp and were about $1k less then the AI modules needed for a 48" tank and I had mentioned that I didn't care for the narrow focal optics that are also used in the AI modules. (these are the 2 controllable units on the market that I was referring too) I also thought that what if 1w LEDs can meet the function of growing corals, visually appeasing and less heat since they are not over driven and also primarily less energy usage.
So I waited and read on but somewhere in my head I was battling the fact that PS was a foreign brand, what support will I have for the product, blah...blah....blah.
So then I came to the conclusion that sometimes you need to take a calculated risk or maybe more of a chance.
Where would the hobby be if you didn't have motivated innovators and some risk takers?

As PHilips is the OEM for PFO, who is the LED OEM for the PAC SUN unit. Perhaps, the lux data can be compared between the Philips LED and the OEM for the PAC SUN LED. Since Dana Riddle did a comparison between MH and LED's back when, there can be an extrapolation from the LED data sheets.

Perhaps, 1W LED's can produce the same light output. "Technology".

 

[ctxmonitor]

I like this spirit!


Oops, :afro: I just burn my hair while :scratch:inventing some new toys.:afro:

LOL, would love to see a pic.. Not the hair, but the new toy..:wink1: